Hi everyone,
In Mailman2 some lists would ban everyone and then manually add subscribers who should be on the list. In Mailman3 this is no longer possible, the ban list trumps everything. If an address is banned, messages from it will be silently discarded, regardless of whether they're subscribed or any other options.
We have so far either removed these kinds of bans during imports or held off importing these lists yet.
Please review your list's ban list ("Ban List" tab in Postorius) and remove any overly broad ones.
As a sidenote, we now have the ability to enact global bans, so if there's a domain or pattern spamming across multiple lists, we can block it in one spot.
I've also added this information to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Mailman3_migration#Review_bans.
-- Kunal
With the new mailman, I'm really excited to see global bans. Is there already some workflow we're supposed to follow to mark spam? It would be great if listadmins could mark stuff as spam and that would then trigger global bans somehow if it happened multiple times. I know I can file a ticket, but want to make sure we first arrive on a desirable solution before we throw it into the dev's lap(s) :)
Best, Lodewijk
On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 2:27 PM Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
Hi everyone,
In Mailman2 some lists would ban everyone and then manually add subscribers who should be on the list. In Mailman3 this is no longer possible, the ban list trumps everything. If an address is banned, messages from it will be silently discarded, regardless of whether they're subscribed or any other options.
We have so far either removed these kinds of bans during imports or held off importing these lists yet.
Please review your list's ban list ("Ban List" tab in Postorius) and remove any overly broad ones.
As a sidenote, we now have the ability to enact global bans, so if there's a domain or pattern spamming across multiple lists, we can block it in one spot.
I've also added this information to < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Mailman3_migration#Review_bans
.
-- Kunal _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
On 5/7/21 3:04 PM, effe iets anders wrote:
With the new mailman, I'm really excited to see global bans. Is there already some workflow we're supposed to follow to mark spam? It would be great if listadmins could mark stuff as spam and that would then trigger global bans somehow if it happened multiple times. I know I can file a ticket, but want to make sure we first arrive on a desirable solution before we throw it into the dev's lap(s) :)
Yeah, that would be really nice. In the past this has been proposed as "Allow list admins to train spam filters"[1] after GNOME patched their Mailman to do so.
Upstream mailman3 has a bug for this as well[2], where they suggest that a plugin could be written for this. If someone writes said plugin and it works, we can definitely deploy/enable it.
In the meantime I would suggest if you notice a new spam problem, post here, see if other list admins also say they're having similar problems, and then we sysadmins can take action.
[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T244241 [2] https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/88
-- Kunal
(This could also be an attack vector, though.
Imagine a local conflict resulting in list admin A marking person B's posts as spam on that local list, effectively silencing person B across all Wikimedia lists.
Without mitigation against that [e.g. a global review queue of marked spam before it becomes a global block], I would be wary of such a feature.)
A.
On Sat, 8 May 2021, 02:05 Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
On 5/7/21 3:04 PM, effe iets anders wrote:
With the new mailman, I'm really excited to see global bans. Is there already some workflow we're supposed to follow to mark spam? It would be great if listadmins could mark stuff as spam and that would then trigger global bans somehow if it happened multiple times. I know I can file a ticket, but want to make sure we first arrive on a desirable solution before we throw it into the dev's lap(s) :)
Yeah, that would be really nice. In the past this has been proposed as "Allow list admins to train spam filters"[1] after GNOME patched their Mailman to do so.
Upstream mailman3 has a bug for this as well[2], where they suggest that a plugin could be written for this. If someone writes said plugin and it works, we can definitely deploy/enable it.
In the meantime I would suggest if you notice a new spam problem, post here, see if other list admins also say they're having similar problems, and then we sysadmins can take action.
[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T244241 [2] https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/88
-- Kunal _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Yes, some global & human review seems necessary.
Maybe a higher threshold would make sense. E.g. if a user gets blocked on two or three lists, then a global block is triggered.
На сб, 8.05.2021 г. в 14:20 ч. Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org написа:
(This could also be an attack vector, though.
Imagine a local conflict resulting in list admin A marking person B's posts as spam on that local list, effectively silencing person B across all Wikimedia lists.
Without mitigation against that [e.g. a global review queue of marked spam before it becomes a global block], I would be wary of such a feature.)
A.
On Sat, 8 May 2021, 02:05 Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
On 5/7/21 3:04 PM, effe iets anders wrote:
With the new mailman, I'm really excited to see global bans. Is there already some workflow we're supposed to follow to mark spam? It would
be
great if listadmins could mark stuff as spam and that would then
trigger
global bans somehow if it happened multiple times. I know I can file a ticket, but want to make sure we first arrive on a desirable solution before we throw it into the dev's lap(s) :)
Yeah, that would be really nice. In the past this has been proposed as "Allow list admins to train spam filters"[1] after GNOME patched their Mailman to do so.
Upstream mailman3 has a bug for this as well[2], where they suggest that a plugin could be written for this. If someone writes said plugin and it works, we can definitely deploy/enable it.
In the meantime I would suggest if you notice a new spam problem, post here, see if other list admins also say they're having similar problems, and then we sysadmins can take action.
[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T244241 [2] https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/88
-- Kunal _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
I was indeed thinking of multiple lists confirming the same behavior. But that will never fully exclude Asaf's concerns.
The use case I'm thinking about is not the individual annoying user (no rush with that) but rather the spammer that sends the same spam to all kinds of mailing lists. For that, some automated process would speed up things considerably, and avoid cluttering the system. There may be better solutions to address this though.
Lodewijk
On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 1:04 AM Dimitar Dimitrov < dimitar.dimitrov@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Yes, some global & human review seems necessary.
Maybe a higher threshold would make sense. E.g. if a user gets blocked on two or three lists, then a global block is triggered.
На сб, 8.05.2021 г. в 14:20 ч. Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org написа:
(This could also be an attack vector, though.
Imagine a local conflict resulting in list admin A marking person B's posts as spam on that local list, effectively silencing person B across all Wikimedia lists.
Without mitigation against that [e.g. a global review queue of marked spam before it becomes a global block], I would be wary of such a feature.)
A.
On Sat, 8 May 2021, 02:05 Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
On 5/7/21 3:04 PM, effe iets anders wrote:
With the new mailman, I'm really excited to see global bans. Is there already some workflow we're supposed to follow to mark spam? It would
be
great if listadmins could mark stuff as spam and that would then
trigger
global bans somehow if it happened multiple times. I know I can file a ticket, but want to make sure we first arrive on a desirable solution before we throw it into the dev's lap(s) :)
Yeah, that would be really nice. In the past this has been proposed as "Allow list admins to train spam filters"[1] after GNOME patched their Mailman to do so.
Upstream mailman3 has a bug for this as well[2], where they suggest that a plugin could be written for this. If someone writes said plugin and it works, we can definitely deploy/enable it.
In the meantime I would suggest if you notice a new spam problem, post here, see if other list admins also say they're having similar problems, and then we sysadmins can take action.
[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T244241 [2] https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/88
-- Kunal _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
I have a suggestion to this. I think list admins can be provided with two options: one, to block a person only from the specific list and two, to block the user from all the mailing lists. Not sure whether it can be implemented.
On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 10:10 PM effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
I was indeed thinking of multiple lists confirming the same behavior. But that will never fully exclude Asaf's concerns.
The use case I'm thinking about is not the individual annoying user (no rush with that) but rather the spammer that sends the same spam to all kinds of mailing lists. For that, some automated process would speed up things considerably, and avoid cluttering the system. There may be better solutions to address this though.
Lodewijk
On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 1:04 AM Dimitar Dimitrov < dimitar.dimitrov@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Yes, some global & human review seems necessary.
Maybe a higher threshold would make sense. E.g. if a user gets blocked on two or three lists, then a global block is triggered.
На сб, 8.05.2021 г. в 14:20 ч. Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org написа:
(This could also be an attack vector, though.
Imagine a local conflict resulting in list admin A marking person B's posts as spam on that local list, effectively silencing person B across all Wikimedia lists.
Without mitigation against that [e.g. a global review queue of marked spam before it becomes a global block], I would be wary of such a feature.)
A.
On Sat, 8 May 2021, 02:05 Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
On 5/7/21 3:04 PM, effe iets anders wrote:
With the new mailman, I'm really excited to see global bans. Is there already some workflow we're supposed to follow to mark spam? It would
be
great if listadmins could mark stuff as spam and that would then
trigger
global bans somehow if it happened multiple times. I know I can file
a
ticket, but want to make sure we first arrive on a desirable solution before we throw it into the dev's lap(s) :)
Yeah, that would be really nice. In the past this has been proposed as "Allow list admins to train spam filters"[1] after GNOME patched their Mailman to do so.
Upstream mailman3 has a bug for this as well[2], where they suggest that a plugin could be written for this. If someone writes said plugin and it works, we can definitely deploy/enable it.
In the meantime I would suggest if you notice a new spam problem, post here, see if other list admins also say they're having similar problems, and then we sysadmins can take action.
[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T244241 [2] https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/88
-- Kunal _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Historically, there were multiple cases where spams were sent with faked From: email address of existing list members. Any solution will need to not end up blocking innocent members.
Regards,
KTC
On 10/05/2021 17:51, Adithya K wrote:
I have a suggestion to this. I think list admins can be provided with two options: one, to block a person only from the specific list and two, to block the user from all the mailing lists. Not sure whether it can be implemented.
On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 10:10 PM effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com mailto:effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote:
I was indeed thinking of multiple lists confirming the same behavior. But that will never fully exclude Asaf's concerns. The use case I'm thinking about is not the individual annoying user (no rush with that) but rather the spammer that sends the same spam to all kinds of mailing lists. For that, some automated process would speed up things considerably, and avoid cluttering the system. There may be better solutions to address this though. Lodewijk On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 1:04 AM Dimitar Dimitrov <dimitar.dimitrov@wikimedia.de <mailto:dimitar.dimitrov@wikimedia.de>> wrote: Yes, some global & human review seems necessary. Maybe a higher threshold would make sense. E.g. if a user gets blocked on two or three lists, then a global block is triggered. На сб, 8.05.2021 г. в 14:20 ч. Asaf Bartov <abartov@wikimedia.org <mailto:abartov@wikimedia.org>> написа: (This could also be an attack vector, though. Imagine a local conflict resulting in list admin A marking person B's posts as spam on that local list, effectively silencing person B across all Wikimedia lists. Without mitigation against that [e.g. a global review queue of marked spam before it becomes a global block], I would be wary of such a feature.) A. On Sat, 8 May 2021, 02:05 Kunal Mehta <legoktm@debian.org <mailto:legoktm@debian.org>> wrote: On 5/7/21 3:04 PM, effe iets anders wrote: > With the new mailman, I'm really excited to see global bans. Is there > already some workflow we're supposed to follow to mark spam? It would be > great if listadmins could mark stuff as spam and that would then trigger > global bans somehow if it happened multiple times. I know I can file a > ticket, but want to make sure we first arrive on a desirable solution > before we throw it into the dev's lap(s) :) Yeah, that would be really nice. In the past this has been proposed as "Allow list admins to train spam filters"[1] after GNOME patched their Mailman to do so. Upstream mailman3 has a bug for this as well[2], where they suggest that a plugin could be written for this. If someone writes said plugin and it works, we can definitely deploy/enable it. In the meantime I would suggest if you notice a new spam problem, post here, see if other list admins also say they're having similar problems, and then we sysadmins can take action. [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T244241 <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T244241> [2] https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/88 <https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/88> -- Kunal
I'd like to point out that kind of spam is usually single-use, with the email address being used once, or *maybe* one day-ish, then not seen again, discarded in favor of another address, another mailing list, another mailing list server altogether.
(Yeah, I have 800 unread mails in my pile, but I'm following this thread closely, for no reason ^^' )
Roger / Alphos
Le 10 mai 2021 à 21:35, Katie Chan ktc@ktchan.info a écrit :
Historically, there were multiple cases where spams were sent with faked From: email address of existing list members. Any solution will need to not end up blocking innocent members.
Regards,
KTC
On 10/05/2021 17:51, Adithya K wrote: I have a suggestion to this. I think list admins can be provided with two options: one, to block a person only from the specific list and two, to block the user from all the mailing lists. Not sure whether it can be implemented. On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 10:10 PM effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com mailto:effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote: I was indeed thinking of multiple lists confirming the same behavior. But that will never fully exclude Asaf's concerns. The use case I'm thinking about is not the individual annoying user (no rush with that) but rather the spammer that sends the same spam to all kinds of mailing lists. For that, some automated process would speed up things considerably, and avoid cluttering the system. There may be better solutions to address this though. Lodewijk On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 1:04 AM Dimitar Dimitrov <dimitar.dimitrov@wikimedia.de mailto:dimitar.dimitrov@wikimedia.de> wrote: Yes, some global & human review seems necessary. Maybe a higher threshold would make sense. E.g. if a user gets blocked on two or three lists, then a global block is triggered. На сб, 8.05.2021 г. в 14:20 ч. Asaf Bartov <abartov@wikimedia.org mailto:abartov@wikimedia.org> написа: (This could also be an attack vector, though. Imagine a local conflict resulting in list admin A marking person B's posts as spam on that local list, effectively silencing person B across all Wikimedia lists. Without mitigation against that [e.g. a global review queue of marked spam before it becomes a global block], I would be wary of such a feature.) A. On Sat, 8 May 2021, 02:05 Kunal Mehta <legoktm@debian.org mailto:legoktm@debian.org> wrote: On 5/7/21 3:04 PM, effe iets anders wrote: > With the new mailman, I'm really excited to see global bans. Is there > already some workflow we're supposed to follow to mark spam? It would be > great if listadmins could mark stuff as spam and that would then trigger > global bans somehow if it happened multiple times. I know I can file a > ticket, but want to make sure we first arrive on a desirable solution > before we throw it into the dev's lap(s) :) Yeah, that would be really nice. In the past this has been proposed as "Allow list admins to train spam filters"[1] after GNOME patched their Mailman to do so. Upstream mailman3 has a bug for this as well[2], where they suggest that a plugin could be written for this. If someone writes said plugin and it works, we can definitely deploy/enable it. In the meantime I would suggest if you notice a new spam problem, post here, see if other list admins also say they're having similar problems, and then we sysadmins can take action. [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T244241 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T244241 [2] https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/88 https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/88 -- Kunal
-- Katie Chan Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent the view of any organisation the author is associated with or employed by.
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine
-- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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First of all, thank you so much to Amir, Legoktm, and everyone else involved in this migration. Top notch!
I have another question about "Spam, etc". Old Mailman had a XXth century UI for processing spam with a gazillion options. Now we seem to have only three: "Accept, Reject, Discard". While "Accept" is clear... can someone explain the difference between Reject and Discard, please? Wiktionary alone didn't help. :)
On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 12:05 AM effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
With the new mailman, I'm really excited to see global bans. Is there already some workflow we're supposed to follow to mark spam? It would be great if listadmins could mark stuff as spam and that would then trigger global bans somehow if it happened multiple times. I know I can file a ticket, but want to make sure we first arrive on a desirable solution before we throw it into the dev's lap(s) :)
Best, Lodewijk
On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 2:27 PM Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
Hi everyone,
In Mailman2 some lists would ban everyone and then manually add subscribers who should be on the list. In Mailman3 this is no longer possible, the ban list trumps everything. If an address is banned, messages from it will be silently discarded, regardless of whether they're subscribed or any other options.
We have so far either removed these kinds of bans during imports or held off importing these lists yet.
Please review your list's ban list ("Ban List" tab in Postorius) and remove any overly broad ones.
As a sidenote, we now have the ability to enact global bans, so if there's a domain or pattern spamming across multiple lists, we can block it in one spot.
I've also added this information to < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Mailman3_migration#Review_bans
.
-- Kunal _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Reject is discard with notification discard is basically ignoring the email and throwing it away.
HTH
On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 3:02 PM Quim Gil qgil@wikimedia.org wrote:
First of all, thank you so much to Amir, Legoktm, and everyone else involved in this migration. Top notch!
I have another question about "Spam, etc". Old Mailman had a XXth century UI for processing spam with a gazillion options. Now we seem to have only three: "Accept, Reject, Discard". While "Accept" is clear... can someone explain the difference between Reject and Discard, please? Wiktionary alone didn't help. :)
On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 12:05 AM effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
With the new mailman, I'm really excited to see global bans. Is there already some workflow we're supposed to follow to mark spam? It would be great if listadmins could mark stuff as spam and that would then trigger global bans somehow if it happened multiple times. I know I can file a ticket, but want to make sure we first arrive on a desirable solution before we throw it into the dev's lap(s) :)
Best, Lodewijk
On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 2:27 PM Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
Hi everyone,
In Mailman2 some lists would ban everyone and then manually add subscribers who should be on the list. In Mailman3 this is no longer possible, the ban list trumps everything. If an address is banned, messages from it will be silently discarded, regardless of whether they're subscribed or any other options.
We have so far either removed these kinds of bans during imports or held off importing these lists yet.
Please review your list's ban list ("Ban List" tab in Postorius) and remove any overly broad ones.
As a sidenote, we now have the ability to enact global bans, so if there's a domain or pattern spamming across multiple lists, we can block it in one spot.
I've also added this information to < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Mailman3_migration#Review_bans
.
-- Kunal _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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-- Quim Gil (he/him) Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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In other terms, to dismiss spam email without the sender knowing you did (useful, so that they still do not know that the email is indeed real), use discard. If it is a message that you still want to reject, but you want the sender to know (perhaps that forum is not appropriate, or contains information that should be private, or whatever) reject is the way to go.
listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org