False-positive probe messages? - Listadmins

Amir Sarabadani

19 Nov 19 Nov

1 p.m.

You can ignore messages, they are actually good (and fixing a long-standing problem we had). Let me explain why: Lots of listadmins have had their membership disabled due to "bounce going over threshold" (see this mailing list for lots of people complaining). The issue is simple. Lots of spammers send spam or virus or phishing emails to *-owner@ which mailman happily forwards to listadmins. But your server (e.g. Gmail), actually rejects those emails (some go to spam but lots of them don't even get accepted) and with the rejection notice, mailman (also happily) increases your bounce score and disables your membership if it passes the threshold. What we did to fix it is that once you pass the threshold, mailman sends a probe email to your account and if that gets received then it doesn't disable your membership (hopefully reduces your bounce score, but not sure) and the server rejects the probe mail, then mailman disables the account for good. TLDR: Don't worry, it's okay. HTH On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 12:50 PM Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hello listadmins, I've been getting these mailing list probe messages from mailman regularly. What I suspect might be a problem, is that the message says "a sample is attached below", but there is no sample bounce message. Is mailman firing off random probe messages? Or is it forgetting to attach a bounce message that my email provider sent it? --Deryck (listadmin of wikimania-l and wikimedia-asia-chapters) ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: [redacted] Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 at 07:54 Subject: Wikimania-l mailing list probe message To: <deryckchan(a)gmail.com> This is a probe message. You can ignore this message. The wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org mailing list has received a number of bounces from you, indicating that there may be a problem delivering messages to deryckchan(a)gmail.com. A sample is attached below. Please examine this message to make sure there are no problems with your email address. You may want to check with your mail administrator for more help. You don't need to do anything to remain an enabled member of the mailing list. If you have any questions or problems, you can contact the mailing list owner at wikimania-l-owner(a)lists.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

-- Amir (he/him)

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Platonides

22 Nov 22 Nov

2:32 a.m.

Well, I would expect that to include such bounce message (or either, a better wording). Probably something like the typical: gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [74.125.71.26]:

...

>> DATA

<<< 552-5.7.0 This message was blocked because its content presents a potential <<< 552-5.7.0 security issue. Please visit <<< 552-5.7.0 https://support.google.com/mail/?p=BlockedMessage to review our <<< 552 5.7.0 message content and attachment content guidelines. d69si1606333wmd.209 - gsmtp

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Deryck Chan

4 Oct 4 Oct

3:30 p.m.

Nick, This is very clear, thank you. --Deryck On Fri, 2 Sept 2022 at 21:25, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <nwilson(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

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On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 5:21 AM Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Il 19/11/21 14:00, Amir Sarabadani ha scritto:

Lots of spammers send spam or virus or phishing emails to *-owner@ which mailman happily forwards to listadmins. But your server (e.g. Gmail), actually rejects those emails

For those users, who were presumably happy about receiving less spam, the probe messages themselves might look like an increase in spam. Maybe the probe message could be turned into something that actually contains useful information, for instance: "If you see messages come through the mailing list as expected, this may mean that your email provider blocked some unwanted messages from delivery, for instance spam: in that case, no action is required". Alternatively, that call to action "Please examine this message" etc. may be made less imperative. However it may not be worth optimising these messages if only few people are receiving them in spurious cases.

I get a probe bounce once/month or so, usually for wikitech-ambassadors@ After forgetting about this thread, I almost filed a phab task, to ask if we could make the message clearer. But then I re-found this thread, and per Nemo's thought that it might not be worth the effort of a technical change (and thinking about future software-maintenance/translations/etc), I decided to simply document it in a new section onwiki. I haven't marked the page as "ready for translation" yet, in case more edits are needed for accuracy or clarity (please do!) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration#Mailing_list_p… _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

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Andrew Lih

1:11 p.m.

I also got pinged by a Wikipedian I know about why they got that message - I don’t know if any reason they should have gotten it On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 6:08 AM Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi listadmins, Many subscribers to wikimania-l received a "You have been unsubscribed from the Wikimania-l mailing list" email today, despite the fact that we are certainly still subscribed (and are discussing these false messages on-list). Has this happened with any other lists? --Deryck wikimania-l listadmin, [[User:Deryck Chan]] On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 at 14:30, Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Nick, This is very clear, thank you. --Deryck On Fri, 2 Sept 2022 at 21:25, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) < nwilson(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 5:21 AM Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Il 19/11/21 14:00, Amir Sarabadani ha scritto: > Lots of spammers send spam or virus or phishing emails to > *-owner@ which mailman happily forwards to listadmins. But your server > (e.g. Gmail), actually rejects those emails For those users, who were presumably happy about receiving less spam, the probe messages themselves might look like an increase in spam. Maybe the probe message could be turned into something that actually contains useful information, for instance: "If you see messages come through the mailing list as expected, this may mean that your email provider blocked some unwanted messages from delivery, for instance spam: in that case, no action is required". Alternatively, that call to action "Please examine this message" etc. may be made less imperative. However it may not be worth optimising these messages if only few people are receiving them in spurious cases.

I get a probe bounce once/month or so, usually for wikitech-ambassadors@ After forgetting about this thread, I almost filed a phab task, to ask if we could make the message clearer. But then I re-found this thread, and per Nemo's thought that it might not be worth the effort of a technical change (and thinking about future software-maintenance/translations/etc), I decided to simply document it in a new section onwiki. I haven't marked the page as "ready for translation" yet, in case more edits are needed for accuracy or clarity (please do!) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration#Mailing_list_p… _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

_______________________________________________

Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

-- -Andrew Lih Smithsonian Institution - Wikimedian at Large Metropolitan Museum of Art - Wikimedia strategist Previously: professor of journalism and communications, American University, Columbia University, University of Southern California --- Email: andrew.lih(a)gmail.com, andrew(a)andrewlih.com WEB: https://muckrack.com/fuzheado PROJECT: Wikipedia Space: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:WPSPACE

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Andrew Lih

2:43 p.m.

Wikimania list specifically On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 8:36 AM Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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Andrew, did your friend get the false unsubscription message from Wikimania-l, or another list? We're trying to figure out how widespread the problem was. On Wed, 18 Jan 2023, 12:12 Andrew Lih, <andrew.lih(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I also got pinged by a Wikipedian I know about why they got that message - I don’t know if any reason they should have gotten it On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 6:08 AM Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi listadmins, > > Many subscribers to wikimania-l received a "You have been unsubscribed > from the Wikimania-l mailing list" email today, despite the fact that we > are certainly still subscribed (and are discussing these false messages > on-list). > > Has this happened with any other lists? > > --Deryck > wikimania-l listadmin, [[User:Deryck Chan]] > > > _______________________________________________

Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

-- -Andrew Lih Smithsonian Institution - Wikimedian at Large Metropolitan Museum of Art - Wikimedia strategist Previously: professor of journalism and communications, American University, Columbia University, University of Southern California --- Email: andrew.lih(a)gmail.com, andrew(a)andrewlih.com WEB: https://muckrack.com/fuzheado PROJECT: Wikipedia Space: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:WPSPACE

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Deb Tankersley

3:41 p.m.

I also received the same email. Deb -- deb tankersley (she/her) senior program manager, engineering Wikimedia Foundation On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 6:50 AM Seddon <jseddon(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

I got the same email. Seddon (he/him they/them) *Engineering Manager* *Mobile Apps, Wikimedia Foundation* On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 1:44 PM Andrew Lih <andrew.lih(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Wikimania list specifically On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 8:36 AM Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Andrew, did your friend get the false unsubscription message from Wikimania-l, or another list? We're trying to figure out how widespread the problem was. On Wed, 18 Jan 2023, 12:12 Andrew Lih, <andrew.lih(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I also got pinged by a Wikipedian I know about why they got that message - I don’t know if any reason they should have gotten it On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 6:08 AM Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi listadmins, > > Many subscribers to wikimania-l received a "You have been unsubscribed > from the Wikimania-l mailing list" email today, despite the fact that we > are certainly still subscribed (and are discussing these false messages > on-list). > > Has this happened with any other lists? > > --Deryck > wikimania-l listadmin, [[User:Deryck Chan]] > > > _______________________________________________

Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

-- -Andrew Lih Smithsonian Institution - Wikimedian at Large Metropolitan Museum of Art - Wikimedia strategist Previously: professor of journalism and communications, American University, Columbia University, University of Southern California --- Email: andrew.lih(a)gmail.com, andrew(a)andrewlih.com WEB: https://muckrack.com/fuzheado PROJECT: Wikipedia Space: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:WPSPACE _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

_______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

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Michal Matúšov

7:36 p.m.

I have also received the email from Wikimania-l. Only from there. Mailman / Posterious / ?? shows that I am currently *not* a member of the mailinglist. KuboF Hromoslav st 18. 1. 2023 o 12:08 Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)gmail.com> napísal(a):

...

Hi listadmins, Many subscribers to wikimania-l received a "You have been unsubscribed from the Wikimania-l mailing list" email today, despite the fact that we are certainly still subscribed (and are discussing these false messages on-list). Has this happened with any other lists? --Deryck wikimania-l listadmin, [[User:Deryck Chan]] On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 at 14:30, Deryck Chan <deryckchan(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Nick, This is very clear, thank you. --Deryck On Fri, 2 Sept 2022 at 21:25, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) < nwilson(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 5:21 AM Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Il 19/11/21 14:00, Amir Sarabadani ha scritto: > Lots of spammers send spam or virus or phishing emails to > *-owner@ which mailman happily forwards to listadmins. But your server > (e.g. Gmail), actually rejects those emails For those users, who were presumably happy about receiving less spam, the probe messages themselves might look like an increase in spam. Maybe the probe message could be turned into something that actually contains useful information, for instance: "If you see messages come through the mailing list as expected, this may mean that your email provider blocked some unwanted messages from delivery, for instance spam: in that case, no action is required". Alternatively, that call to action "Please examine this message" etc. may be made less imperative. However it may not be worth optimising these messages if only few people are receiving them in spurious cases.

I get a probe bounce once/month or so, usually for wikitech-ambassadors@ After forgetting about this thread, I almost filed a phab task, to ask if we could make the message clearer. But then I re-found this thread, and per Nemo's thought that it might not be worth the effort of a technical change (and thinking about future software-maintenance/translations/etc), I decided to simply document it in a new section onwiki. I haven't marked the page as "ready for translation" yet, in case more edits are needed for accuracy or clarity (please do!) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration#Mailing_list_p… _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

_______________________________________________

Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

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Kunal Mehta

21 Jan 21 Jan

5:03 a.m.

New subject: Wikimania-l mass unsubscribing (was: Re: Re: False-positive probe messages?)

Hi, I have reached out to the wikimania-l list admins privately with what I found by investigating the server logs[1], it appears that the "unsubscribe all" interface was accidentally used and then people were silently resubscribed (so it appeared they weren't unsubscribed in the first place). In general, if some data loss happens please please PLEASE reach out to the Mailman admins / SRE team as soon as possible, we have much better tools like database backups to restore things exactly to the way they were. Accidents happen, we understand, it's much easier for us to intervene and reset things right after they occur rather than trying to piece things together later. [1] Those with Phabricator security access can review <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T327572>. HTH, -- Kunal / Legoktm On 1/18/23 06:07, Deryck Chan wrote:

...

Hi listadmins, Many subscribers to wikimania-l received a "You have been unsubscribed from the Wikimania-l mailing list" email today, despite the fact that we are certainly still subscribed (and are discussing these false messages on-list). Has this happened with any other lists? --Deryck wikimania-l listadmin, [[User:Deryck Chan]]

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Risker

5:40 a.m.

New subject: Wikimania-l mass unsubscribing (was: Re: Re: False-positive probe messages?)

I can tell you that there *is* a confirmation requirement before mass unsubscribing everyone, because I almost did it tonight and got a warning message. Risker/Anne On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 at 23:37, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

FWIW, this is not the first time an admin mistakenly has done this. It is an issue in the interface that doesn't even ask for confirmation before mass unsubscribing everyone. There was a task for it but I can't find it, if anyone remembers please send it to me. Best Am Sa., 21. Jan. 2023 um 05:03 Uhr schrieb Kunal Mehta <legoktm(a)debian.org

:

Hi, I have reached out to the wikimania-l list admins privately with what I found by investigating the server logs[1], it appears that the "unsubscribe all" interface was accidentally used and then people were silently resubscribed (so it appeared they weren't unsubscribed in the first place). In general, if some data loss happens please please PLEASE reach out to the Mailman admins / SRE team as soon as possible, we have much better tools like database backups to restore things exactly to the way they were. Accidents happen, we understand, it's much easier for us to intervene and reset things right after they occur rather than trying to piece things together later. [1] Those with Phabricator security access can review <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T327572>. HTH, -- Kunal / Legoktm On 1/18/23 06:07, Deryck Chan wrote:

Hi listadmins, Many subscribers to wikimania-l received a "You have been unsubscribed from the Wikimania-l mailing list" email today, despite the fact that

we

are certainly still subscribed (and are discussing these false messages on-list). Has this happened with any other lists? --Deryck wikimania-l listadmin, [[User:Deryck Chan]]

_______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

-- Amir (he/him) _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

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Butch Bustria

6:23 a.m.

New subject: Wikimania-l mass unsubscribing (was: Re: Re: False-positive probe messages?)

Hi Everyone, Thank you very much for this information. Of someone who very used to use mailboxes and knowing of deleting something would give you warning, this comes to me as a surprise. It is a profound regret that this has happened. This incident/ concern almost distracted me in various Wikimania meetings I attend. I truly appreciate the effort. Kind regards, Butch On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 12:47 PM Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Risker: Not in all cases IIRC, also generally the UX of it is suboptimal but it's getting better. See this upstream ticket: https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/-/issues/545 Am Sa., 21. Jan. 2023 um 05:41 Uhr schrieb Risker <risker.wp(a)gmail.com>om>:

I can tell you that there *is* a confirmation requirement before mass unsubscribing everyone, because I almost did it tonight and got a warning message. Risker/Anne On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 at 23:37, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

FWIW, this is not the first time an admin mistakenly has done this. It is an issue in the interface that doesn't even ask for confirmation before mass unsubscribing everyone. There was a task for it but I can't find it, if anyone remembers please send it to me. Best Am Sa., 21. Jan. 2023 um 05:03 Uhr schrieb Kunal Mehta < legoktm(a)debian.org>gt;:

Hi, I have reached out to the wikimania-l list admins privately with what I found by investigating the server logs[1], it appears that the "unsubscribe all" interface was accidentally used and then people were silently resubscribed (so it appeared they weren't unsubscribed in the first place). In general, if some data loss happens please please PLEASE reach out to the Mailman admins / SRE team as soon as possible, we have much better tools like database backups to restore things exactly to the way they were. Accidents happen, we understand, it's much easier for us to intervene and reset things right after they occur rather than trying to piece things together later. [1] Those with Phabricator security access can review <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T327572>. HTH, -- Kunal / Legoktm On 1/18/23 06:07, Deryck Chan wrote: > Hi listadmins, > > Many subscribers to wikimania-l received a "You have been unsubscribed > from the Wikimania-l mailing list" email today, despite the fact that we > are certainly still subscribed (and are discussing these false messages > on-list). > > Has this happened with any other lists? > > --Deryck > wikimania-l listadmin, [[User:Deryck Chan]] _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

-- Amir (he/him) _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

_______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

-- Amir (he/him) _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

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