Hi Quim and Sarah,
I should have worded my question more precisely. I'm asking what Wikimedia could do to recruit people who play video games on various platforms and in various types of games (casual, FPS, MMPORG, and so on) so that they convert the time they currently use for gaming into time spent contributing to Wikimedia projects of any kind or subject rather than on the important but narrower subject of video games. For example, what would it take to convert people who currently play crossword puzzles or Scrabble on their smartphones into editors of Wiktionary? What would it take to convert people who play geocaching into photo contributors to Commons? What would it take to convert FPS gamers into NPP or anti-vandalism editors?
The people on the Research list are generating a lot of good discussion about gamification within Wikimedia to encourage more and higher quality participation, and we're also discussing how to recruit gamers to become new Wikimedia contributors. Please come over to the thread on Research-l and let's continue talking there. (:
Pine
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2013 07:31:17 -0700 From: Quim Gil qgil@wikimedia.org To: ee@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [EE] Recruiting gamers to edit Wikimedia Message-ID: 51D6D8B5.4040904@wikimedia.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 07/04/2013 12:46 PM, ENWP Pine wrote:
I've asked these questions in other ways and places and I'd like to hear what other people on the Research and EE lists think.
There are many video game players of diverse ages, genders, languages, and locations. How could Wikimedia editing be made into an appealing activity for people who are currently video gamers? How could Wikimedia market itself to gamers, including console, LAN, FPS, MMORPG, and mobile gamers?
Have you asked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games ?
(as an outsider) I would say that gaming in general is pretty well covered, at least in comparison with other areas of knowledge. Or what would be the reason to target gamers?
Editing per se is not the problem. There is no lack of gamers using wikis (and MediaWiki!) e.g. http://www.wikia.com/ or http://www.minecraftwiki.net/ . The average gamer probably gets the idea of crowdsourcing knowledge pretty well. Those wikis are community wikis though, as an editor you won't need to deal (much) with relevance, references, POV, essay, etc. I don't know what are the conditions to upload copyrighted content but probably these wikis are more permissive than Wikimedia's.
Well, I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Move_to_gaming_wiki exists for a reason. Maybe if we would send gamers (also) to http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Subject:Games we could keep a bit more talent around...
-- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 08:26:14 -0700 From: Sarah Stierch sstierch@wikimedia.org To: WMF Editor Engagement Team ee@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [EE] Recruiting gamers to edit Wikimedia Message-ID: CAFk0ehVOcyV-N5KMchop-C0r7wY649adXMDHg5U+CVbjGhaVPw@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi,
And yes, if you're interested in engaging (or re engaging) with people already in the community or who don't edit as frequently perhaps, you can contact people who have userboxes on English Wikipedia saying they are into video games:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Userboxes/Games/Video_games
I do this for women's history projects and programs. I either use EdwardsBot and spam them with a template inviting them to something or whatever, or invite them individually (more time consuming of course).
Sarah
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Quim Gil qgil@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 07/04/2013 12:46 PM, ENWP Pine wrote:
I've asked these questions in other ways and places and I'd like to hear what other people on the Research and EE lists think.
There are many video game players of diverse ages, genders, languages, and locations. How could Wikimedia editing be made into an appealing activity for people who are currently video gamers? How could Wikimedia market itself to gamers, including console, LAN, FPS, MMORPG, and mobile gamers?
Have you asked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/** Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_**gameshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games?
(as an outsider) I would say that gaming in general is pretty well covered, at least in comparison with other areas of knowledge. Or what would be the reason to target gamers?
Editing per se is not the problem. There is no lack of gamers using wikis (and MediaWiki!) e.g. http://www.wikia.com/ or http://www.minecraftwiki.net/ . The average gamer probably gets the idea of crowdsourcing knowledge pretty well. Those wikis are community wikis though, as an editor you won't need to deal (much) with relevance, references, POV, essay, etc. I don't know what are the conditions to upload copyrighted content but probably these wikis are more permissive than Wikimedia's.
Well, I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Template:Move_to_gaming_wikihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Move_to_gaming_wikiexists for a reason. Maybe if we would send gamers (also) to http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/**Subject:Gameshttp://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Subject:Gameswe could keep a bit more talent around...
-- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/**User:Qgilhttp://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
______________________________**_________________ EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/eehttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
-- *Sarah Stierch** Wikimedia Foundation Program Evaluation & Design Community Coordinator *Donatehttp://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Donate/en&utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=&language=en&uselang=en&country=US&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26ved%3D0CDMQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fdonate.wikipedia.org%252F%26ei%3DYpsET93HN6isiQLIoJjSDg%26usg%3DAFQjCNG-7hzT9rkEvAjlNqBIOQ1ZDIpdYAtoday and keep it free!
Visit me on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch!
Speaking from experience:
I watched as a handful (about 10) enthusiastic players of the game I wrote went about writing an article about the game for Wikipedia. They enjoyed the hell out of doing it.
And then I watched them as they got crushed because a handful of people who didn't know *anything* about the subject matter of browser-based MMORPGs nominated the article for deletion, ignored the comments by the players on the deletion discussion, and then deleted it.
And then I watched this process happen three more times, with about 30 other players.
Gamers, frankly, do NOT understand and are completely frustrated by the arbitrary (from their point of view) application of rules. Rules are rules. They should be applied evenly and consistently. When they aren't, it's frustrating - and games that do that, people stop playing.
On Jul 6, 2013, at 10:32 PM, ENWP Pine deyntestiss@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi Quim and Sarah,
I should have worded my question more precisely. I'm asking what Wikimedia could do to recruit people who play video games on various platforms and in various types of games (casual, FPS, MMPORG, and so on) so that they convert the time they currently use for gaming into time spent contributing to Wikimedia projects of any kind or subject rather than on the important but narrower subject of video games. For example, what would it take to convert people who currently play crossword puzzles or Scrabble on their smartphones into editors of Wiktionary? What would it take to convert people who play geocaching into photo contributors to Commons? What would it take to convert FPS gamers into NPP or anti-vandalism editors?
The people on the Research list are generating a lot of good discussion about gamification within Wikimedia to encourage more and higher quality participation, and we're also discussing how to recruit gamers to become new Wikimedia contributors. Please come over to the thread on Research-l and let's continue talking there. (:
Pine
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2013 07:31:17 -0700 From: Quim Gil qgil@wikimedia.org To: ee@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [EE] Recruiting gamers to edit Wikimedia Message-ID: 51D6D8B5.4040904@wikimedia.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 07/04/2013 12:46 PM, ENWP Pine wrote:
I've asked these questions in other ways and places and I'd like to hear what other people on the Research and EE lists think.
There are many video game players of diverse ages, genders, languages, and locations. How could Wikimedia editing be made into an appealing activity for people who are currently video gamers? How could Wikimedia market itself to gamers, including console, LAN, FPS, MMORPG, and mobile gamers?
Have you asked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games ?
(as an outsider) I would say that gaming in general is pretty well covered, at least in comparison with other areas of knowledge. Or what would be the reason to target gamers?
Editing per se is not the problem. There is no lack of gamers using wikis (and MediaWiki!) e.g. http://www.wikia.com/ or http://www.minecraftwiki.net/ . The average gamer probably gets the idea of crowdsourcing knowledge pretty well. Those wikis are community wikis though, as an editor you won't need to deal (much) with relevance, references, POV, essay, etc. I don't know what are the conditions to upload copyrighted content but probably these wikis are more permissive than Wikimedia's.
Well, I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Move_to_gaming_wiki exists for a reason. Maybe if we would send gamers (also) to http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Subject:Games we could keep a bit more talent around...
-- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 08:26:14 -0700 From: Sarah Stierch sstierch@wikimedia.org To: WMF Editor Engagement Team ee@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [EE] Recruiting gamers to edit Wikimedia Message-ID: CAFk0ehVOcyV-N5KMchop-C0r7wY649adXMDHg5U+CVbjGhaVPw@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi,
And yes, if you're interested in engaging (or re engaging) with people already in the community or who don't edit as frequently perhaps, you can contact people who have userboxes on English Wikipedia saying they are into video games:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Userboxes/Games/Video_games
I do this for women's history projects and programs. I either use EdwardsBot and spam them with a template inviting them to something or whatever, or invite them individually (more time consuming of course).
Sarah
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Quim Gil qgil@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 07/04/2013 12:46 PM, ENWP Pine wrote:
I've asked these questions in other ways and places and I'd like to hear what other people on the Research and EE lists think.
There are many video game players of diverse ages, genders, languages, and locations. How could Wikimedia editing be made into an appealing activity for people who are currently video gamers? How could Wikimedia market itself to gamers, including console, LAN, FPS, MMORPG, and mobile gamers?
Have you asked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/** Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_**gameshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games?
(as an outsider) I would say that gaming in general is pretty well covered, at least in comparison with other areas of knowledge. Or what would be the reason to target gamers?
Editing per se is not the problem. There is no lack of gamers using wikis (and MediaWiki!) e.g. http://www.wikia.com/ or http://www.minecraftwiki.net/ . The average gamer probably gets the idea of crowdsourcing knowledge pretty well. Those wikis are community wikis though, as an editor you won't need to deal (much) with relevance, references, POV, essay, etc. I don't know what are the conditions to upload copyrighted content but probably these wikis are more permissive than Wikimedia's.
Well, I guesshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Template:Move_to_gaming_wikihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Move_to_gaming_wikiexists for a reason. Maybe if we would send gamers (also) to http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/**Subject:Gameshttp://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Subject:Gameswe could keep a bit more talent around...
-- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/**User:Qgilhttp://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
______________________________**_________________ EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/eehttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
-- *Sarah Stierch** Wikimedia Foundation Program Evaluation & Design Community Coordinator *Donatehttp://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Donate/en&utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=&language=en&uselang=en&country=US&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26ved%3D0CDMQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fdonate.wikipedia.org%252F%26ei%3DYpsET93HN6isiQLIoJjSDg%26usg%3DAFQjCNG-7hzT9rkEvAjlNqBIOQ1ZDIpdYAtoday and keep it free!
Visit me on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch!
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
--- Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
That's not gamers, that's basically anyone, with potentially any topic people happen to care about. So yes, gamers would run into that problem with some of their games, but it's a much more general issue and doesn't mean Pine's idea is off if the gamers in question get into the general timesink that is the project instead of a specific topic. As a gamer myself I have found editing wikis to be a lovely alternative, since there's the vague feeling of doing something not entirely unproductive for a change.
It's just that getting anyone into said general timesink and editing the wikis can be iffy, especially at first.
-I
On 07/07/13 07:50, Brandon Harris wrote:
Speaking from experience:
I watched as a handful (about 10) enthusiastic players of the game I wrote went about writing an article about the game for Wikipedia. They enjoyed the hell out of doing it. And then I watched them as they got crushed because a handful of people who didn't know *anything* about the subject matter of browser-based MMORPGs nominated the article for deletion, ignored the comments by the players on the deletion discussion, and then deleted it. And then I watched this process happen three more times, with about 30 other players.Gamers, frankly, do NOT understand and are completely frustrated by the arbitrary (from their point of view) application of rules. Rules are rules. They should be applied evenly and consistently. When they aren't, it's frustrating - and games that do that, people stop playing.
On Jul 6, 2013, at 10:32 PM, ENWP Pine deyntestiss@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi Quim and Sarah,
I should have worded my question more precisely. I'm asking what Wikimedia could do to recruit people who play video games on various platforms and in various types of games (casual, FPS, MMPORG, and so on) so that they convert the time they currently use for gaming into time spent contributing to Wikimedia projects of any kind or subject rather than on the important but narrower subject of video games. For example, what would it take to convert people who currently play crossword puzzles or Scrabble on their smartphones into editors of Wiktionary? What would it take to convert people who play geocaching into photo contributors to Commons? What would it take to convert FPS gamers into NPP or anti-vandalism editors?
The people on the Research list are generating a lot of good discussion about gamification within Wikimedia to encourage more and higher quality participation, and we're also discussing how to recruit gamers to become new Wikimedia contributors. Please come over to the thread on Research-l and let's continue talking there. (:
Pine
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2013 07:31:17 -0700 From: Quim Gil qgil@wikimedia.org To: ee@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [EE] Recruiting gamers to edit Wikimedia Message-ID: 51D6D8B5.4040904@wikimedia.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 07/04/2013 12:46 PM, ENWP Pine wrote:
I've asked these questions in other ways and places and I'd like to hear what other people on the Research and EE lists think.
There are many video game players of diverse ages, genders, languages, and locations. How could Wikimedia editing be made into an appealing activity for people who are currently video gamers? How could Wikimedia market itself to gamers, including console, LAN, FPS, MMORPG, and mobile gamers?
Have you asked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games ?
(as an outsider) I would say that gaming in general is pretty well covered, at least in comparison with other areas of knowledge. Or what would be the reason to target gamers?
Editing per se is not the problem. There is no lack of gamers using wikis (and MediaWiki!) e.g. http://www.wikia.com/ or http://www.minecraftwiki.net/ . The average gamer probably gets the idea of crowdsourcing knowledge pretty well. Those wikis are community wikis though, as an editor you won't need to deal (much) with relevance, references, POV, essay, etc. I don't know what are the conditions to upload copyrighted content but probably these wikis are more permissive than Wikimedia's.
Well, I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Move_to_gaming_wiki exists for a reason. Maybe if we would send gamers (also) to http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Subject:Games we could keep a bit more talent around...
-- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 08:26:14 -0700 From: Sarah Stierch sstierch@wikimedia.org To: WMF Editor Engagement Team ee@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [EE] Recruiting gamers to edit Wikimedia Message-ID: CAFk0ehVOcyV-N5KMchop-C0r7wY649adXMDHg5U+CVbjGhaVPw@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi,
And yes, if you're interested in engaging (or re engaging) with people already in the community or who don't edit as frequently perhaps, you can contact people who have userboxes on English Wikipedia saying they are into video games:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Userboxes/Games/Video_games
I do this for women's history projects and programs. I either use EdwardsBot and spam them with a template inviting them to something or whatever, or invite them individually (more time consuming of course).
Sarah
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Quim Gil qgil@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 07/04/2013 12:46 PM, ENWP Pine wrote:
I've asked these questions in other ways and places and I'd like to hear what other people on the Research and EE lists think.
There are many video game players of diverse ages, genders, languages, and locations. How could Wikimedia editing be made into an appealing activity for people who are currently video gamers? How could Wikimedia market itself to gamers, including console, LAN, FPS, MMORPG, and mobile gamers?
Have you asked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/** Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_**gameshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games?
(as an outsider) I would say that gaming in general is pretty well covered, at least in comparison with other areas of knowledge. Or what would be the reason to target gamers?
Editing per se is not the problem. There is no lack of gamers using wikis (and MediaWiki!) e.g. http://www.wikia.com/ or http://www.minecraftwiki.net/ . The average gamer probably gets the idea of crowdsourcing knowledge pretty well. Those wikis are community wikis though, as an editor you won't need to deal (much) with relevance, references, POV, essay, etc. I don't know what are the conditions to upload copyrighted content but probably these wikis are more permissive than Wikimedia's.
Well, I guesshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Template:Move_to_gaming_wikihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Move_to_gaming_wikiexists for a reason. Maybe if we would send gamers (also) to http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/**Subject:Gameshttp://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Subject:Gameswe could keep a bit more talent around...
-- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/**User:Qgilhttp://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
______________________________**_________________ EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/eehttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
-- *Sarah Stierch** Wikimedia Foundation Program Evaluation & Design Community Coordinator *Donatehttp://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Donate/en&utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=&language=en&uselang=en&country=US&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26ved%3D0CDMQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fdonate.wikipedia.org%252F%26ei%3DYpsET93HN6isiQLIoJjSDg%26usg%3DAFQjCNG-7hzT9rkEvAjlNqBIOQ1ZDIpdYAtoday and keep it free!
Visit me on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch!
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Brandon Harris bharris@wikimedia.orgwrote:
And then I watched them as they got crushed because ahandful of people who didn't know *anything* about the subject matter of browser-based MMORPGs nominated the article for deletion, ignored the comments by the players on the deletion discussion, and then deleted it.
Can we change the Delete operation to "Move to user subpage of initial author"? Delete is such an awful game over event, a big fat "Insert 200 quarters and bang your head on the screen to continue".
No doubt this has been proposed before but I can't find it in search results. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Userfication talks about it but not as a policy.
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:47 AM, S Page spage@wikimedia.org wrote:
Can we change the Delete operation to "Move to user subpage of initial author"? Delete is such an awful game over event, a big fat "Insert 200 quarters and bang your head on the screen to continue".
"Userfying" articles this way is sometimes used, and the English Wikipedia's "articles for creation" review system (AFC) moves pages in and out of the Wikipedia Talk namespace. Both of these strategies run in to trouble when used at scale.
One idea to test in the future, which editors who work in AFC have been receptive to, is creation of a noindexed Draft namespace. This would probably help accomplish the goal you were suggesting, where articles that aren't harmful per se but which need work can simple be demoted to a draft status.
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:47 AM, S Page spage@wikimedia.org wrote:
Can we change the Delete operation to "Move to user subpage of initial author"? Delete is such an awful game over event, a big fat "Insert 200 quarters and bang your head on the screen to continue".
"Userfying" articles this way is sometimes used, and the English Wikipedia's "articles for creation" review system (AFC) moves pages in and out of the Wikipedia Talk namespace. Both of these strategies run in to trouble when used at scale.
One idea to test in the future, which editors who work in AFC have been receptive to, is creation of a noindexed Draft namespace. This would probably help accomplish the goal you were suggesting, where articles that aren't harmful per se but which need work can simple be demoted to a draft status.
-- Steven Walling https://wikimediafoundation.org/
Such a procedure would not serve the interest of public relations operatives whose goal is to get rid of material harmful to their clients' such as [[processed food]].
Fred