Hi Kerry,
I agree that this discussion is happening among a small group of exprerienced people, and research with newbies about their preferred communication tools would be valuable.
However, I feel that Kiwi offers a friendlier experience than we have now, is an incremental improvement to the user experience, and poses little risk of making the new user experience more challenging. There might be technical challenges, and I hope we will hear about any of those from the devs either on Freenode's side or Wikimedia's side. If anyone has alternative suggestions to Kiwi or knows reasons to stick with the status quo, I hope they will speak up.
I appreciate how you are thinking about this issue from the point of view of the people we would like to help. In this case I feel the risk is low so an extensive user study is not needed. However if you still feel differently I would welcome hearing your views. Please let me know if I have addressed your concerns.
Thanks, Pine On Aug 11, 2014 12:02 AM, "Kerry Raymond" kerry.raymond@gmail.com wrote:
Pine, with respect, I think you are looking at this in terms of “how do we shoehorn these users into our way of doing things” instead of asking “what should the user experience be like?”.
In the scenario we are discussing, we have a new user (or even not-so-new user) sitting in front of a Wikipedia edit window presumably feeling dazed and confused by some aspect of it (or all of it). So they click the friendly “get help” button (or whatever it is) and we take them to IRC-plus-or-minus-Kiwi with which they probably have no experience. I feel it will just reinforce the sensation of “I don’t understand any of this” and make it less likely they will seek help and more likely that they will cease editing. So much of Wikipedia is built for by developers for developers (or at least designed by experienced users for experienced users) and this seems to be an entirely unconscious process.
I know WMF employs at least one user experience person. I think that person should be doing the user studies (or whatever it is that they do) to find out what might work best. Anyone taking part in this conversation in this mailing list is presumably an existing editor of some experience; we are probably not the people to decide how best to deliver help to the new user. If there is one thing the existing “community” should not decide, it is the new user experience, or else we condemn ourselves to a user experience that only works for the kinds of editors we currently have (a community that has a massive gendergap and a declining active editor base).
Kerry
*From:* gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Pine W *Sent:* Monday, 11 August 2014 3:18 PM *To:* ee@lists.wikimedia.org; Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase theparticipation of women within Wikimedia projects.; wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* [Gendergap] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
Hi,
Following up on a conversation on the gendergap email list, I am discussing with Freenode the possibility of changing the default web client to one that is friendlier and has a less technical feel, primarily for the benefit of new users who access #wikipedia-en-help by clicking on a link. The likely candidate for a new IRC client is Kiwi. If Freenode wants to maintain their current default web client we can still use Kiwi if we run it on Wikimedia pages. Would WMF or the volunteer dev community be willing to implement this? If so, is filing a Bugzilla bug the best way to get the wheels of progress to turn?
Pine
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Quick thoughts: as someone who helps out on #wikipedia-en-help regularly I don't see any drawbacks to the switch to Kiwi. Having just looked at both of them Kiwi is a much more user-friendly interface compared to freenode's webchat for a number of reasons.
I'm still somewhat of the opinion that we could do better than IRC though. Multiple discussions happening at the same time and more than one helper often confuses those not used to an IRC channel. That said, I guess developing our own chat system may be more work than it's worth, and for now I think IRC works for the most part. I would be interested in seeing some kind of study as to how helpful users find it, what they would prefer, etc. though.
Sam
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Kerry,
I agree that this discussion is happening among a small group of exprerienced people, and research with newbies about their preferred communication tools would be valuable.
However, I feel that Kiwi offers a friendlier experience than we have now, is an incremental improvement to the user experience, and poses little risk of making the new user experience more challenging. There might be technical challenges, and I hope we will hear about any of those from the devs either on Freenode's side or Wikimedia's side. If anyone has alternative suggestions to Kiwi or knows reasons to stick with the status quo, I hope they will speak up.
I appreciate how you are thinking about this issue from the point of view of the people we would like to help. In this case I feel the risk is low so an extensive user study is not needed. However if you still feel differently I would welcome hearing your views. Please let me know if I have addressed your concerns.
Thanks, Pine On Aug 11, 2014 12:02 AM, "Kerry Raymond" kerry.raymond@gmail.com wrote:
Pine, with respect, I think you are looking at this in terms of “how do we shoehorn these users into our way of doing things” instead of asking “what should the user experience be like?”.
In the scenario we are discussing, we have a new user (or even not-so-new user) sitting in front of a Wikipedia edit window presumably feeling dazed and confused by some aspect of it (or all of it). So they click the friendly “get help” button (or whatever it is) and we take them to IRC-plus-or-minus-Kiwi with which they probably have no experience. I feel it will just reinforce the sensation of “I don’t understand any of this” and make it less likely they will seek help and more likely that they will cease editing. So much of Wikipedia is built for by developers for developers (or at least designed by experienced users for experienced users) and this seems to be an entirely unconscious process.
I know WMF employs at least one user experience person. I think that person should be doing the user studies (or whatever it is that they do) to find out what might work best. Anyone taking part in this conversation in this mailing list is presumably an existing editor of some experience; we are probably not the people to decide how best to deliver help to the new user. If there is one thing the existing “community” should not decide, it is the new user experience, or else we condemn ourselves to a user experience that only works for the kinds of editors we currently have (a community that has a massive gendergap and a declining active editor base).
Kerry
*From:* gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Pine W *Sent:* Monday, 11 August 2014 3:18 PM *To:* ee@lists.wikimedia.org; Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase theparticipation of women within Wikimedia projects.; wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* [Gendergap] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
Hi,
Following up on a conversation on the gendergap email list, I am discussing with Freenode the possibility of changing the default web client to one that is friendlier and has a less technical feel, primarily for the benefit of new users who access #wikipedia-en-help by clicking on a link. The likely candidate for a new IRC client is Kiwi. If Freenode wants to maintain their current default web client we can still use Kiwi if we run it on Wikimedia pages. Would WMF or the volunteer dev community be willing to implement this? If so, is filing a Bugzilla bug the best way to get the wheels of progress to turn?
Pine
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
EE mailing list EE@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee