But more importantly, you mentioned yourself that talk pages are really
part of the _editing_ experience. And, quite frankly, we have to remind
ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good
editing experience.
I think Dan Garry was the last person who I heard say "I don't want great
to be the enemy of good," which I think is worth keeping in mind here. Is
chat functionality something that only delivers value when paired with full
editing capabilities, or that can deliver user (and organization) value on
its own? Seems like a good question/experiment to me.
Also, this is yet another reason why we need push notifications
(Gather/Watchlist + Chat = MOAR ENGAGEMENTZ \o/).
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Dmitry Brant <dbrant(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
Thanks for taking initiative on this, Michael! Talk
pages are indeed part
of the life-blood of Wikipedia, and should ideally be accessible from the
app. Here, however, are the challenges I see with the kind of
implementation that you're proposing:
Amir correctly notes that Flow is gradually poising itself to replace
traditional talk pages, being backed by structured data and a nice API that
the apps will be able to use natively. If we want to get talk pages
"right," we would need to implement a great native presentation of Flow.
But more importantly, you mentioned yourself that talk pages are really
part of the _editing_ experience. And, quite frankly, we have to remind
ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good
editing experience. Therefore, providing access to talk pages without
providing the other fundamentals that are central to editing (moderation
tools, watchlists, diffs, notifications, etc) may be putting the cart
before the horse, and may lead to confusion. In fact, I'm not sure if any
*one* of those editing features makes sense without all the others. And to
implement all of those features in the apps would require a department-wide
focus on editing, which is currently not the case.
All that being said, I'm not opposed to making gradual progress towards
better editing features, as long as we maintain our focus on creating a
beautiful reading experience. To sum up, I'm not opposed to adding an
option to go to the Talk page of an article, but until the app has a more
robust editing experience, I would suggest that this option takes the user
to the Mobile Web version of the talk page (like we currently do for
article history), and make it much less prominent than a primary action in
the Toolbar.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
Now, this
is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no?
Yes, only on particular pages.
At least one Wikipedia has it on Village Pump - Catalan:
https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viquip%C3%A8dia:La_taverna/Novetats .
AFAIK, the intention is to transition all talk and discussion ages to
Flow some day, and I don't know when will it actually happen. Maybe Danny
has a better idea.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 12:28 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso <abaso(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:
I see. Now, this is enabled on certain pages at
the moment, no? Or is
there a means of activating the Flow mobile-compatible mode with well
formed URLs or something like that for any given <lang>.m.wikipedia.org
page? Apologies, I do most of my Talk page stuff on desktop typically. But
that said, that is a pretty nice layout on those links you listed!
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
No, I'm not sure what does
mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop do for Flow.
I was referring to rendering of Flow on mobile websites, for example
https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:CX or
https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Amire80 .
Trying it on an actual phone gives the best effect.
Though there certainly are some issues (
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T93430 ), Flow pages work FAR better
on phones than the classic talk pages.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 11:58 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso <abaso(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:
Amir, are you referring to use of the inbuilt
"desktop" mode of Flow,
such as
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:MediaWiki?mobileaction=toggle_view_desk…
?
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but
for a while already Flow
has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old
talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition
tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on
Flow and less on the old talk pages.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso <abaso(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:
> Moving discussion to mobile-l.
>
> On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway <mholloway(a)wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
>> OK by me.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso <abaso(a)wikimedia.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l?
>>>
>>> I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about
>>> engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be
>>> helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this
>>> pretty fundamental stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway <
>>> mholloway(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey all,
>>>>
>>>> Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about
>>>> the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved
>>>> app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience
--
>>>> from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to
uninstalling
>>>> it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they
>>>> vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important
>>>> group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment.
Although
>>>> reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to
improving
>>>> the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and
the
>>>> design research team are running a survey research study on mobile
>>>> contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear
what
>>>> insights they have to offer.)
>>>>
>>>> I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it
>>>> would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app.
I'm
>>>> sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but
they're
>>>> very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers
they
>>>> offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why.
So
>>>> yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to
flip
>>>> back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and
let
>>>> me know what you think!
>>>>
>>>>
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>> send an email to android+unsubscribe(a)wikimedia.org.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to android(a)wikimedia.org.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>
https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BG…
>>>>
<https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGUT0f9fYiMVzqpGGwym58a%2BirvaG5njvVQ_Uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>
>>
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