Plus, Flow is backed by structured data, right? We apps engineers can't get enough structured data! On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il&gt; wrote: -- EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle IRC: bgerstle

No, I'm not sure what does mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop do for Flow. I was referring to rendering of Flow on mobile websites, for example https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:CX or https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Amire80 . Trying it on an actual phone gives the best effect. Though there certainly are some issues ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T93430 ), Flow pages work FAR better on phones than the classic talk pages. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ 2015-07-22 11:58 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso &lt;abaso(a)wikimedia.org&gt;rg>: On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il&gt; wrote:

I think we are far away from enabling flow on all pages in any project, but for mobile it would take away a lot of work to have a solution, which is working on mobile and desktop. So far there is a TalkOverlay for all users with more than 5 edits (iirc), if you open a wiki page and scroll down you should see a “Discussion” button. Clicking that, you will see a “parsed” version of the discussions, but it is far far away from a good or useable way to read, let alone editing, on talk pages. But it’s better than nothing :) Best, Florian Von: mobile-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mobile-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Adam Baso Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Juli 2015 19:28 An: Amir E. Aharoni &lt;amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il&gt; Cc: mobile-l &lt;mobile-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt; Betreff: Re: [WikimediaMobile] In-app editing / talk pages support I see. Now, this is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no? Or is there a means of activating the Flow mobile-compatible mode with well formed URLs or something like that for any given <lang>.m.wikipedia.org <http://m.wikipedia.org> page? Apologies, I do most of my Talk page stuff on desktop typically. But that said, that is a pretty nice layout on those links you listed! -Adam On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Amir E. Aharoni &lt;amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il <mailto:amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> > wrote: No, I'm not sure what does mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop do for Flow. I was referring to rendering of Flow on mobile websites, for example https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:CX or https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Amire80 . Trying it on an actual phone gives the best effect. Though there certainly are some issues ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T93430 ), Flow pages work FAR better on phones than the classic talk pages. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore 2015-07-22 11:58 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso &lt;abaso(a)wikimedia.org <mailto:abaso@wikimedia.org> >: Amir, are you referring to use of the inbuilt "desktop" mode of Flow, such as https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:MediaWiki?mobileaction=toggle_view_desk… ? -Adam On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni &lt;amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il <mailto:amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> > wrote: It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but for a while already Flow has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on Flow and less on the old talk pages. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore 2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso &lt;abaso(a)wikimedia.org <mailto:abaso@wikimedia.org> >: Moving discussion to mobile-l. On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway &lt;mholloway(a)wikimedia.org <mailto:mholloway@wikimedia.org> > wrote: OK by me. On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso < <mailto:abaso@wikimedia.org> abaso(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l? I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this pretty fundamental stuff. On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway < <mailto:mholloway@wikimedia.org> mholloway(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: Hey all, Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the design research team are running a survey research study on mobile contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what insights they have to offer.) I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let me know what you think! https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/ Cheers, Michael -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "android" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <mailto:android+unsubscribe@wikimedia.org> android+unsubscribe(a)wikimedia.org. To post to this group, send email to <mailto:android@wikimedia.org> android(a)wikimedia.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BG… <https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGUT0f9fYiMVzqpGGwym58a%2BirvaG5njvVQ_Uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> . _______________________________________________ Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l

Thanks for taking initiative on this, Michael! Talk pages are indeed part of the life-blood of Wikipedia, and should ideally be accessible from the app. Here, however, are the challenges I see with the kind of implementation that you're proposing: Amir correctly notes that Flow is gradually poising itself to replace traditional talk pages, being backed by structured data and a nice API that the apps will be able to use natively. If we want to get talk pages "right," we would need to implement a great native presentation of Flow. But more importantly, you mentioned yourself that talk pages are really part of the _editing_ experience. And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience. Therefore, providing access to talk pages without providing the other fundamentals that are central to editing (moderation tools, watchlists, diffs, notifications, etc) may be putting the cart before the horse, and may lead to confusion. In fact, I'm not sure if any *one* of those editing features makes sense without all the others. And to implement all of those features in the apps would require a department-wide focus on editing, which is currently not the case. All that being said, I'm not opposed to making gradual progress towards better editing features, as long as we maintain our focus on creating a beautiful reading experience. To sum up, I'm not opposed to adding an option to go to the Talk page of an article, but until the app has a more robust editing experience, I would suggest that this option takes the user to the Mobile Web version of the talk page (like we currently do for article history), and make it much less prominent than a primary action in the Toolbar. On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il&gt; wrote:

On 22 July 2015 at 14:00, Brian Gerstle &lt;bgerstle(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: Identifying "talk pages" with "chat" is to misunderstand how talkpages are used. Talkpages are used for discussion, yes; they are also used to display notices about the article and about restrictions the article might be under, identify users who might be able to help with problems, and in the case of user talkpages, display notifications, including welcomes and warnings. Or to put it another way: if there is an environment that supports editing but not talkpages, it is an environment that allows users to be blocked for good-faith edits, after receiving repeated warnings, that the system never displayed to them, and it is also an environment - on a collaborative project, no less - that offers them no assistance if they run into trouble and makes them believe, whether it is the truth or not, that they're editing in a vacuum. Talkpages are not required for /an/ editing experience. But a full-fledged editing experience is one that lets users avoid problems they're informed about and reach out about ones they spot themselves. An environment in which a user's first notification that anyone is even aware they exist is getting /blocked/ is not fully-fledged. -- Oliver Keyes Research Analyst Wikimedia Foundation

But can the apps' reading experience make the Kessel Run in less than 12 Parsecs? And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience. On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Gergo Tisza &lt;gtisza(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: -- Corey Floyd Software Engineer Mobile Apps / iOS Wikimedia Foundation

On 22 July 2015 at 10:52, Dmitry Brant &lt;dbrant(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: I think you hit the nail on the head with this comment. Experienced Wikipedians know the value of talk pages. For many of them, talk pages actually comprise the majority of their usage of the site. But, the majority of their navigation to those pages are through their watchlist, so adding a talk page link doesn't serve them; they know the talk page is there, and how to find it if they need it. For newer users, talk pages are their entry point into the inner workings of the wiki, and how they get sucked in. But, there are some pretty fundamental <https://i.imgur.com/UOqtyoM.png> formatting issues with talk pages in the app right now. If you're going to make it read only, how are you going to explain to users why other users are leaving comments, but they can't edit it? Suddenly, there are a lot of questions that will take a lot of team bandwidth, designs, and discussions to answer. Can you commit to answering all of these questions given the other work you have in the pipeline? For the reasons above, I was opposed (and still am) to adding links to talk pages in the app. For experienced editors, they know where to find them and don't need a button to get there. For readers (the primary user type that the app supports), the talk page experience in the app is not good enough to expose the users to it, and we never had the capacity to get the experience to a place where it was good enough for them without considerable work to build out the entire pipeline. Dan -- Dan Garry Lead Product Manager, Discovery Wikimedia Foundation

Dan Garry, 25/07/2015 02:38: Do you mean the templates should be uncollapsed by default? That could help, but they're fine like that as well. Nemo

I agree that read-only access to talk pages from the app will be a great improvement, even without editing. Even if I can't fully respond while on my mobile device, I want to at least be able to see the discussions. My current workflow frequently involves manually searching for the talk page in the app. And most talk pages are actually quite readable. -Sage On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) &lt;nemowiki(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: