You know, I never thought I would do this, but I am now. I am officially dropping my role as an xTools dev. I no longer have an active desire or the needed time to play around with the convoluted, and obfuscated code. The are many reasons I have come to this decision. The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. I only have time to do smaller things, like maintain code I developed, aka Cyberbot and Supercount. Another big reason is that I progressively lost my drive to put in effort to these tools for the past few months. For the past few months as I engage with email and on wiki conversations regarding xTools with Kudpung, I felt more and more like a useless piece of shit. I don't want feel useless or be useless. So I am moving my focus elsewhere, where I can feel useful and needed.
I will continue to actively maintain Cyberbot and Supercount, and will continue to remain active on Wikipedia, but my activities here, on xTools, will be severely reduced. I will stick around to address needed webservice restarts, and to provide an opinion of one is asked.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits . From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net > wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com
wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Yes, I was the one who ported Wikihistory over and I am working on it as we speak. I think I’m almost there.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 4:52 PM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits . From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net > wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Thank you for doing that. As a matter of interest, why didn't you tell me it was working for articles, even when I asked you (here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cyberpower678&diff=prev&oldid=679194694 and here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cyberpower678&diff=prev&oldid=679644286) a few days ago? Given that it was me who originally asked for it and contacted the developer, it's odd that you didn't mention it.
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com
wrote:
Yes, I was the one who ported Wikihistory over and I am working on it as we speak. I think I’m almost there.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 4:52 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
I thought I did. It must have slipped my mind. I apologize.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 4:58 PM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Thank you for doing that. As a matter of interest, why didn't you tell me it was working for articles, even when I asked you (here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cyberpower678&diff=prev&oldid=679194694 and here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cyberpower678&diff=prev&oldid=679644286 ) a few days ago? Given that it was me who originally asked for it and contacted the developer, it's odd that you didn't mention it.
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
Yes, I was the one who ported Wikihistory over and I am working on it as we speak. I think I’m almost there.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 4:52 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits . From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net > wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Okay, thank you. I know you're feeling heavily criticized, and I don't want to add to that, but I want to show you that this is an example of where the frustration comes from.
I asked you a question on 3 September: any news about WikiHistory. You replied by referring to something else, even though you knew it was working for articles and you knew I had been waiting for that to happen. So I was left to assume there had been no progress.
If you could keep people informed, especially when they ask you a direct question, I think they/we would stop pressuring you.
It's especially difficult for someone like myself, with no technical knowledge, because I have no idea what I'm asking a lot of the time. When I say: "can you do X?" I don't know whether I'm asking for an hour's work, or six months' work; and don't know whether what I'm asking is reasonable, fair, do-able, or pie in the sky.
For that reason, any and all clarification from you would be hugely appreciated.
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 2:00 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com
wrote:
I thought I did. It must have slipped my mind. I apologize.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 4:58 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Thank you for doing that. As a matter of interest, why didn't you tell me it was working for articles, even when I asked you (here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cyberpower678&diff=prev&oldid=679194694 and here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cyberpower678&diff=prev&oldid=679644286) a few days ago? Given that it was me who originally asked for it and contacted the developer, it's odd that you didn't mention it.
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, I was the one who ported Wikihistory over and I am working on it as we speak. I think I’m almost there.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 4:52 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
My apologies. I will endeavor to work on bettering my communication skills for the future. :)
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 5:32 PM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Okay, thank you. I know you're feeling heavily criticized, and I don't want to add to that, but I want to show you that this is an example of where the frustration comes from.
I asked you a question on 3 September: any news about WikiHistory. You replied by referring to something else, even though you knew it was working for articles and you knew I had been waiting for that to happen. So I was left to assume there had been no progress.
If you could keep people informed, especially when they ask you a direct question, I think they/we would stop pressuring you.
It's especially difficult for someone like myself, with no technical knowledge, because I have no idea what I'm asking a lot of the time. When I say: "can you do X?" I don't know whether I'm asking for an hour's work, or six months' work; and don't know whether what I'm asking is reasonable, fair, do-able, or pie in the sky.
For that reason, any and all clarification from you would be hugely appreciated.
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 2:00 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
I thought I did. It must have slipped my mind. I apologize.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 4:58 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Thank you for doing that. As a matter of interest, why didn't you tell me it was working for articles, even when I asked you (here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cyberpower678&diff=prev&oldid=679194694 and here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cyberpower678&diff=prev&oldid=679644286 ) a few days ago? Given that it was me who originally asked for it and contacted the developer, it's odd that you didn't mention it.
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
Yes, I was the one who ported Wikihistory over and I am working on it as we speak. I think I’m almost there.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 4:52 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits . From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net > wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Okay, thank you, and I'll try to do the same. And thank you for taking the point so well.
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com
wrote:
My apologies. I will endeavor to work on bettering my communication skills for the future. J
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 5:32 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Okay, thank you. I know you're feeling heavily criticized, and I don't want to add to that, but I want to show you that this is an example of where the frustration comes from.
I asked you a question on 3 September: any news about WikiHistory. You replied by referring to something else, even though you knew it was working for articles and you knew I had been waiting for that to happen. So I was left to assume there had been no progress.
If you could keep people informed, especially when they ask you a direct question, I think they/we would stop pressuring you.
It's especially difficult for someone like myself, with no technical knowledge, because I have no idea what I'm asking a lot of the time. When I say: "can you do X?" I don't know whether I'm asking for an hour's work, or six months' work; and don't know whether what I'm asking is reasonable, fair, do-able, or pie in the sky.
For that reason, any and all clarification from you would be hugely appreciated.
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 2:00 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
I thought I did. It must have slipped my mind. I apologize.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 4:58 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Thank you for doing that. As a matter of interest, why didn't you tell me it was working for articles, even when I asked you (here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cyberpower678&diff=prev&oldid=679194694 and here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cyberpower678&diff=prev&oldid=679644286) a few days ago? Given that it was me who originally asked for it and contacted the developer, it's odd that you didn't mention it.
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, I was the one who ported Wikihistory over and I am working on it as we speak. I think I’m almost there.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 4:52 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sigma (WP) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits . From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net > wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com
wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sigma (WP) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Sarah, do you still want me to finish my work on Wikihistory as a backup? It does provide a slightly different amount of information.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 7:37 PM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of Sigma (WP) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits . From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net > wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
I would love you to finish that, partly for back-up, but also because it looks good and is easy to read. But again, I don't know how much work I'm asking you to do.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com
wrote:
Sarah, do you still want me to finish my work on Wikihistory as a backup? It does provide a slightly different amount of information.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 7:37 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sigma (WP) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
At this point it shouldn’t be much more, but I’m not making any promises here. I might even be able to get it going tonight. Again, no promises.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 7:47 PM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I would love you to finish that, partly for back-up, but also because it looks good and is easy to read. But again, I don't know how much work I'm asking you to do.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
Sarah, do you still want me to finish my work on Wikihistory as a backup? It does provide a slightly different amount of information.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 7:37 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of Sigma (WP) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits . From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net > wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Okay, fair enough, and thank you.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com
wrote:
At this point it shouldn’t be much more, but I’m not making any promises here. I might even be able to get it going tonight. Again, no promises.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 7:47 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I would love you to finish that, partly for back-up, but also because it looks good and is easy to read. But again, I don't know how much work I'm asking you to do.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Sarah, do you still want me to finish my work on Wikihistory as a backup? It does provide a slightly different amount of information.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 7:37 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sigma (WP) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sigma (WP) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Sigma, can you explain what the problem is with Wikimedia Labs? What do we need to ask the Foundation for to get it fixed? I get "no web service" constantly, or it just hangs, not only with your tool but other things too. Or I get connected, but it can take 30 seconds or longer.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Sigma (WP) sigmawp@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sigma (WP) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) sigmawp@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sigma (WP) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Sigma, I'm getting into yours really fast now. It's wonderful to have that service up again.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, MusikAnimal musikanimal@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) sigmawp@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sigma (WP) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
I’m getting ready to deploy the modifications to make the tool fully operational on xTools for the English Wikipedia. Unfortunately, getting it to work outside articlespace is going to take some more doing. This tool is adamantly hard coded around the 0 namespace.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 8:52 PM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, I'm getting into yours really fast now. It's wonderful to have that service up again.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, MusikAnimal <musikanimal@gmail.com mailto:musikanimal@gmail.com > wrote:
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) <sigmawp@gmail.com mailto:sigmawp@gmail.com > wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of Sigma (WP) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits . From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net > wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Well my first attempt failed. :/
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 8:52 PM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, I'm getting into yours really fast now. It's wonderful to have that service up again.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, MusikAnimal <musikanimal@gmail.com mailto:musikanimal@gmail.com > wrote:
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) <sigmawp@gmail.com mailto:sigmawp@gmail.com > wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of Sigma (WP) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits . From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net > wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
I might need APPER to help me out a bit. Some of the logic of the code doesn’t make much sense to me, or I’m just too tired. I believe I made lots of headway today, though, but I’m getting a massive exception with his executable program, (it can run on Linux?).
An exception occurred: XmlException: Document element did not appear. Line 1, position 1.
at Mono.Xml2.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlReader.MoveToContent () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.ReadConfigFile (System.Xml.XmlReader reader, System.String fileName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Load () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Init (IConfigSystem system, System.String configPath, System.Configuration.Configuration parent) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration..ctor (System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationSystem system, System.String locationSubPath) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationFactory.Create (System.Type typeConfigHost, System.Object[] hostInitConfigurationParams) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ConfigurationManager.OpenMappedExeConfiguration (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap fileMap, ConfigurationUserLevel userLevel) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.LoadProperties (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap exeMap, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection, ConfigurationUserLevel level, System.String sectionGroupName, Boolean allowOverwrite, System.String groupName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.LocalFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection properties) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.CacheValuesByProvider (System.Configuration.SettingsProvider provider) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.GetPropertyValue (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.get_Item (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Properties.Settings.get_Project () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.CommandLineVersion..ctor (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Program.Main (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
The question is why the XML keeps getting deleted before calling this program.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 8:52 PM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, I'm getting into yours really fast now. It's wonderful to have that service up again.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, MusikAnimal <musikanimal@gmail.com mailto:musikanimal@gmail.com > wrote:
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) <sigmawp@gmail.com mailto:sigmawp@gmail.com > wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of Sigma (WP) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org ] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits . From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com > wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net > wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org > wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com > wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
_______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Hi, WikiHistory has disappeared again when I go to page information --> revision history statistics, and again the page is saying "no revisions found."
Does anyone know what happened?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com
wrote:
I might need APPER to help me out a bit. Some of the logic of the code doesn’t make much sense to me, or I’m just too tired. I believe I made lots of headway today, though, but I’m getting a massive exception with his executable program, (it can run on Linux?).
An exception occurred: XmlException: Document element did not appear. Line 1, position 1.
at Mono.Xml2.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlReader.MoveToContent () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.ReadConfigFile (System.Xml.XmlReader reader, System.String fileName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Load () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Init (IConfigSystem system, System.String configPath, System.Configuration.Configuration parent) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration..ctor (System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationSystem system, System.String locationSubPath) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationFactory.Create (System.Type typeConfigHost, System.Object[] hostInitConfigurationParams) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ConfigurationManager.OpenMappedExeConfiguration (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap fileMap, ConfigurationUserLevel userLevel) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.LoadProperties (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap exeMap, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection, ConfigurationUserLevel level, System.String sectionGroupName, Boolean allowOverwrite, System.String groupName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.LocalFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection properties) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.CacheValuesByProvider (System.Configuration.SettingsProvider provider) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.GetPropertyValue (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.get_Item (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Properties.Settings.get_Project () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.CommandLineVersion..ctor (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Program.Main (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
The question is why the XML keeps getting deleted before calling this program.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 8:52 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, I'm getting into yours really fast now. It's wonderful to have that service up again.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, MusikAnimal musikanimal@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) sigmawp@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sigma (WP) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Yesterday when I used it it was the German version ported to enWiki and it was working fine and looked very good.
Does anyone have an update on the progress with the other tools, especially those originally developed by Scottywomg? In the light of Orangemoody these are required even more urgently than ever: a) for detectiove work, and b) for the background arguments to introduced new policy resulting from Orangemoody.
Thanks for everyones’ help in these issues - let’s see if we can get them resolved as quickly as possible.
Kudpung
On 14 Sep 2015, at 08:44, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, WikiHistory has disappeared again when I go to page information --> revision history statistics, and again the page is saying "no revisions found."
Does anyone know what happened?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote: I might need APPER to help me out a bit. Some of the logic of the code doesn’t make much sense to me, or I’m just too tired. I believe I made lots of headway today, though, but I’m getting a massive exception with his executable program, (it can run on Linux?).
An exception occurred: XmlException: Document element did not appear. Line 1, position 1.
at Mono.Xml2.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlReader.MoveToContent () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.ReadConfigFile (System.Xml.XmlReader reader, System.String fileName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Load () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Init (IConfigSystem system, System.String configPath, System.Configuration.Configuration parent) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration..ctor (System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationSystem system, System.String locationSubPath) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationFactory.Create (System.Type typeConfigHost, System.Object[] hostInitConfigurationParams) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ConfigurationManager.OpenMappedExeConfiguration (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap fileMap, ConfigurationUserLevel userLevel) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.LoadProperties (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap exeMap, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection, ConfigurationUserLevel level, System.String sectionGroupName, Boolean allowOverwrite, System.String groupName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.LocalFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection properties) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.CacheValuesByProvider (System.Configuration.SettingsProvider provider) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.GetPropertyValue (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.get_Item (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Properties.Settings.get_Project () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.CommandLineVersion..ctor (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Program.Main (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
The question is why the XML keeps getting deleted before calling this program.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 8:52 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, I'm getting into yours really fast now. It's wonderful to have that service up again.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, MusikAnimal <musikanimal@gmail.com mailto:musikanimal@gmail.com> wrote:
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) <sigmawp@gmail.com mailto:sigmawp@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com> wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sigma (WP) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com> wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/ http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net> wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools _______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
As for the link change, you will need to contact the admin that changed it, or purge your cache. As for scottywong's tools, there's is no progress and likely won't be any. I have no intentions of taking on another big set of tools.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 14, 2015, at 03:51, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
Yesterday when I used it it was the German version ported to enWiki and it was working fine and looked very good.
Does anyone have an update on the progress with the other tools, especially those originally developed by Scottywomg? In the light of Orangemoody these are required even more urgently than ever: a) for detectiove work, and b) for the background arguments to introduced new policy resulting from Orangemoody.
Thanks for everyones’ help in these issues - let’s see if we can get them resolved as quickly as possible.
Kudpung
On 14 Sep 2015, at 08:44, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, WikiHistory has disappeared again when I go to page information --> revision history statistics, and again the page is saying "no revisions found."
Does anyone know what happened?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote: I might need APPER to help me out a bit. Some of the logic of the code doesn’t make much sense to me, or I’m just too tired. I believe I made lots of headway today, though, but I’m getting a massive exception with his executable program, (it can run on Linux?).
An exception occurred: XmlException: Document element did not appear. Line 1, position 1.
at Mono.Xml2.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlReader.MoveToContent () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.ReadConfigFile (System.Xml.XmlReader reader, System.String fileName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Load () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Init (IConfigSystem system, System.String configPath, System.Configuration.Configuration parent) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration..ctor (System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationSystem system, System.String locationSubPath) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationFactory.Create (System.Type typeConfigHost, System.Object[] hostInitConfigurationParams) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ConfigurationManager.OpenMappedExeConfiguration (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap fileMap, ConfigurationUserLevel userLevel) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.LoadProperties (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap exeMap, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection, ConfigurationUserLevel level, System.String sectionGroupName, Boolean allowOverwrite, System.String groupName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.LocalFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection properties) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.CacheValuesByProvider (System.Configuration.SettingsProvider provider) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.GetPropertyValue (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.get_Item (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Properties.Settings.get_Project () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.CommandLineVersion..ctor (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Program.Main (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
The question is why the XML keeps getting deleted before calling this program.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 8:52 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, I'm getting into yours really fast now. It's wonderful to have that service up again.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, MusikAnimal musikanimal@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) sigmawp@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sigma (WP) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Cyberpower, what do you mean about the link change and the admin who changed it?
I see WikiHistory is running again. I wonder why it disappeared briefly.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
As for the link change, you will need to contact the admin that changed it, or purge your cache. As for scottywong's tools, there's is no progress and likely won't be any. I have no intentions of taking on another big set of tools.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 14, 2015, at 03:51, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
Yesterday when I used it it was the German version ported to enWiki and it was working fine and looked very good.
Does anyone have an update on the progress with the other tools, especially those originally developed by Scottywomg? In the light of Orangemoody these are required even more urgently than ever: a) for detectiove work, and b) for the background arguments to introduced new policy resulting from Orangemoody.
Thanks for everyones’ help in these issues - let’s see if we can get them resolved as quickly as possible.
Kudpung
On 14 Sep 2015, at 08:44, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, WikiHistory has disappeared again when I go to page information --> revision history statistics, and again the page is saying "no revisions found."
Does anyone know what happened?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
I might need APPER to help me out a bit. Some of the logic of the code doesn’t make much sense to me, or I’m just too tired. I believe I made lots of headway today, though, but I’m getting a massive exception with his executable program, (it can run on Linux?).
An exception occurred: XmlException: Document element did not appear. Line 1, position 1.
at Mono.Xml2.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlReader.MoveToContent () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.ReadConfigFile (System.Xml.XmlReader reader, System.String fileName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Load () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Init (IConfigSystem system, System.String configPath, System.Configuration.Configuration parent) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration..ctor (System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationSystem system, System.String locationSubPath) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationFactory.Create (System.Type typeConfigHost, System.Object[] hostInitConfigurationParams) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ConfigurationManager.OpenMappedExeConfiguration (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap fileMap, ConfigurationUserLevel userLevel) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.LoadProperties (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap exeMap, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection, ConfigurationUserLevel level, System.String sectionGroupName, Boolean allowOverwrite, System.String groupName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.LocalFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection properties) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.CacheValuesByProvider (System.Configuration.SettingsProvider provider) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.GetPropertyValue (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.get_Item (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Properties.Settings.get_Project () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.CommandLineVersion..ctor (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Program.Main (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
The question is why the XML keeps getting deleted before calling this program.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 8:52 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, I'm getting into yours really fast now. It's wonderful to have that service up again.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, MusikAnimal musikanimal@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) sigmawp@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sigma (WP) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Who took on the initial responsibility of porting Scottywongs tools to Las? Why were thye working up to about two weeks ago and not now? Who is ultimately responsible for the maintenance of Labs?
Kudpung
On 14Sep, 2015, at 15:30, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Cyberpower, what do you mean about the link change and the admin who changed it?
I see WikiHistory is running again. I wonder why it disappeared briefly.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote: As for the link change, you will need to contact the admin that changed it, or purge your cache. As for scottywong's tools, there's is no progress and likely won't be any. I have no intentions of taking on another big set of tools.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 14, 2015, at 03:51, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
Yesterday when I used it it was the German version ported to enWiki and it was working fine and looked very good.
Does anyone have an update on the progress with the other tools, especially those originally developed by Scottywomg? In the light of Orangemoody these are required even more urgently than ever: a) for detectiove work, and b) for the background arguments to introduced new policy resulting from Orangemoody.
Thanks for everyones’ help in these issues - let’s see if we can get them resolved as quickly as possible.
Kudpung
On 14 Sep 2015, at 08:44, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, WikiHistory has disappeared again when I go to page information --> revision history statistics, and again the page is saying "no revisions found."
Does anyone know what happened?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote: I might need APPER to help me out a bit. Some of the logic of the code doesn’t make much sense to me, or I’m just too tired. I believe I made lots of headway today, though, but I’m getting a massive exception with his executable program, (it can run on Linux?).
An exception occurred: XmlException: Document element did not appear. Line 1, position 1.
at Mono.Xml2.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlReader.MoveToContent () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.ReadConfigFile (System.Xml.XmlReader reader, System.String fileName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Load () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Init (IConfigSystem system, System.String configPath, System.Configuration.Configuration parent) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration..ctor (System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationSystem system, System.String locationSubPath) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationFactory.Create (System.Type typeConfigHost, System.Object[] hostInitConfigurationParams) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ConfigurationManager.OpenMappedExeConfiguration (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap fileMap, ConfigurationUserLevel userLevel) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.LoadProperties (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap exeMap, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection, ConfigurationUserLevel level, System.String sectionGroupName, Boolean allowOverwrite, System.String groupName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.LocalFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection properties) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.CacheValuesByProvider (System.Configuration.SettingsProvider provider) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.GetPropertyValue (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.get_Item (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Properties.Settings.get_Project () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.CommandLineVersion..ctor (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Program.Main (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
The question is why the XML keeps getting deleted before calling this program.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 8:52 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, I'm getting into yours really fast now. It's wonderful to have that service up again.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, MusikAnimal <musikanimal@gmail.com mailto:musikanimal@gmail.com> wrote:
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) <sigmawp@gmail.com mailto:sigmawp@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com> wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sigma (WP) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com> wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools <xtools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xtools@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/ http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) <slimvirgin@gmail.com mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia <l235@l235.net mailto:l235@l235.net> wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr <maximilian.doerr@gmail.com mailto:maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools _______________________________________________ Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
1. Sigma and Scottywong's
2. Labs keeps breaking down and exploding
3. Coren and the rest of the WMF labs staff.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 14, 2015, at 12:26, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
Who took on the initial responsibility of porting Scottywongs tools to Las? Why were thye working up to about two weeks ago and not now? Who is ultimately responsible for the maintenance of Labs?
Kudpung
On 14Sep, 2015, at 15:30, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Cyberpower, what do you mean about the link change and the admin who changed it?
I see WikiHistory is running again. I wonder why it disappeared briefly.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote: As for the link change, you will need to contact the admin that changed it, or purge your cache. As for scottywong's tools, there's is no progress and likely won't be any. I have no intentions of taking on another big set of tools.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 14, 2015, at 03:51, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
Yesterday when I used it it was the German version ported to enWiki and it was working fine and looked very good.
Does anyone have an update on the progress with the other tools, especially those originally developed by Scottywomg? In the light of Orangemoody these are required even more urgently than ever: a) for detectiove work, and b) for the background arguments to introduced new policy resulting from Orangemoody.
Thanks for everyones’ help in these issues - let’s see if we can get them resolved as quickly as possible.
Kudpung
On 14 Sep 2015, at 08:44, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, WikiHistory has disappeared again when I go to page information --> revision history statistics, and again the page is saying "no revisions found."
Does anyone know what happened?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote: I might need APPER to help me out a bit. Some of the logic of the code doesn’t make much sense to me, or I’m just too tired. I believe I made lots of headway today, though, but I’m getting a massive exception with his executable program, (it can run on Linux?).
An exception occurred: XmlException: Document element did not appear. Line 1, position 1.
at Mono.Xml2.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlReader.MoveToContent () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.ReadConfigFile (System.Xml.XmlReader reader, System.String fileName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Load () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Init (IConfigSystem system, System.String configPath, System.Configuration.Configuration parent) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration..ctor (System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationSystem system, System.String locationSubPath) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationFactory.Create (System.Type typeConfigHost, System.Object[] hostInitConfigurationParams) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ConfigurationManager.OpenMappedExeConfiguration (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap fileMap, ConfigurationUserLevel userLevel) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.LoadProperties (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap exeMap, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection, ConfigurationUserLevel level, System.String sectionGroupName, Boolean allowOverwrite, System.String groupName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.LocalFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection properties) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.CacheValuesByProvider (System.Configuration.SettingsProvider provider) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.GetPropertyValue (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.get_Item (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Properties.Settings.get_Project () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.CommandLineVersion..ctor (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Program.Main (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
The question is why the XML keeps getting deleted before calling this program.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sarah (SV) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 8:52 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, I'm getting into yours really fast now. It's wonderful to have that service up again.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, MusikAnimal musikanimal@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) sigmawp@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sigma (WP) Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
From: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of MusikAnimal Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM To: Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to supervise us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
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Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
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Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Sarah, I was the one who updated the page info and histlegend links. Since WikiHistory only works for mainspace pages, I did a namespace check and made it link to xtools for non-mainspace pages. So when you saw "no revisions found" you were actually looking at the xtools article info, which is broken. I have fixed the link to go to Sigma's working tool for non-mainspace pages. Note also you can use the "external links" at the top of a page history (called the histlegend links). Those are more well-kept than the page info links.
Best
On 14 September 2015 at 06:33, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma and Scottywong's
Labs keeps breaking down and exploding
Coren and the rest of the WMF labs staff.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 14, 2015, at 12:26, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
- Who took on the initial responsibility of porting Scottywongs tools
to Las? 2. Why were thye working up to about two weeks ago and not now? 3. Who is ultimately responsible for the maintenance of Labs?
Kudpung
On 14Sep, 2015, at 15:30, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Cyberpower, what do you mean about the link change and the admin who changed it?
I see WikiHistory is running again. I wonder why it disappeared briefly.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
As for the link change, you will need to contact the admin that changed it, or purge your cache. As for scottywong's tools, there's is no progress and likely won't be any. I have no intentions of taking on another big set of tools.
Cyberpower678 English Wikipedia Account Creation Team Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 14, 2015, at 03:51, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
Yesterday when I used it it was the German version ported to enWiki and it was working fine and looked very good.
Does anyone have an update on the progress with the other tools, especially those originally developed by Scottywomg? In the light of Orangemoody these are required even more urgently than ever: a) for detectiove work, and b) for the background arguments to introduced new policy resulting from Orangemoody.
Thanks for everyones’ help in these issues - let’s see if we can get them resolved as quickly as possible.
Kudpung
On 14 Sep 2015, at 08:44, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, WikiHistory has disappeared again when I go to page information --> revision history statistics, and again the page is saying "no revisions found."
Does anyone know what happened?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
I might need APPER to help me out a bit. Some of the logic of the code doesn’t make much sense to me, or I’m just too tired. I believe I made lots of headway today, though, but I’m getting a massive exception with his executable program, (it can run on Linux?).
An exception occurred: XmlException: Document element did not appear. Line 1, position 1.
at Mono.Xml2.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlTextReader.Read () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Xml.XmlReader.MoveToContent () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.ReadConfigFile (System.Xml.XmlReader reader, System.String fileName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Load () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration.Init (IConfigSystem system, System.String configPath, System.Configuration.Configuration parent) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.Configuration..ctor (System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationSystem system, System.String locationSubPath) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.InternalConfigurationFactory.Create (System.Type typeConfigHost, System.Object[] hostInitConfigurationParams) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ConfigurationManager.OpenMappedExeConfiguration (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap fileMap, ConfigurationUserLevel userLevel) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.LoadProperties (System.Configuration.ExeConfigurationFileMap exeMap, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection, ConfigurationUserLevel level, System.String sectionGroupName, Boolean allowOverwrite, System.String groupName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.CustomizableFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection collection) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.LocalFileSettingsProvider.GetPropertyValues (System.Configuration.SettingsContext context, System.Configuration.SettingsPropertyCollection properties) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.CacheValuesByProvider (System.Configuration.SettingsProvider provider) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.GetPropertyValue (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsBase.get_Item (System.String propertyName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Properties.Settings.get_Project () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.CommandLineVersion..ctor (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at WikiHistory.Program.Main (System.String[] args) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
The question is why the XML keeps getting deleted before calling this program.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarah (SV) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 8:52 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
Sigma, I'm getting into yours really fast now. It's wonderful to have that service up again.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, MusikAnimal musikanimal@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, had I known about your tool it would been linked many moons ago. We thought xtools was the only one. Legoktm came in and added yours, which did great until just as you say, the service went down (maybe a week ago?). Glad you got it back up and running, along with all of your tools!
For the record, earlier today when your tool was still down I changed the Histlengend to use WikiHistory for the mainspace and yours for others, in case yours came up those namespaces would be covered. Should we keep it this way? I'm only asking because there has been interest in WikiHistory, so perhaps going this route we're getting use out of both. I just don't want it to seem like we're shutting one service out of the picture. I'm impartial and am happy to go either way.
~ Leon
On 7 September 2015 at 19:51, Sigma (WP) sigmawp@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah, I was waiting to see if/when someone would mention "but look at this tool that's been linked to in MediaWiki:Histlegend for a few weeks now" and got a bit impatient :~).
The "no webservice" errors are the fault of Labs. It is much more explosive than Toolserver was.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sigma, it's wonderful. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
I don't want to introduce a but – but I've tried it several times recently, and it's not always available. Is this a Wikimedia Labs issue, and why is it so difficult to get connected to anything there?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sigma for providing that. You are the true hero.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Sigma (WP) *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 6:03 PM
*To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
I'm just gonna leave https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py here and see what happens.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Eugene said he would get WikiHistory running for the English Wikipedia. Cyberpower, was it you who set it up for articles, or was that Eugene?
Sarah
On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Maximilian Doerr < maximilian.doerr@gmail.com> wrote:
YES, YES, YES. Exactly. I took xTools over 3 years ago because it was fun, and I had the time and resources to do it. Kudpung, you fail to realize that when I took it over I had the resources to commit to it. I singlehandedly moved the tools from toolserver to labs, which was no small task. I single handedly have been keeping them running as best as I can until Hedonil came along. In which case he rewrote everything, and made things impossible for me. When I asked about the code, he disappeared leaving me in an impossible situation, I attempted to recruit more people, but that failed too. Then you came along and kept pushing for an immediate where non-existed. I no longer have any enthusiasm to maintain these tools. I can try and get Wikihistory fully operational, but after that, I will no longer be maintaining the code for xTools.
*From:* xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: xtools-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *MusikAnimal *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2015 10:10 AM *To:* Discussion list for xTools xtools@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [xTools] Dropping xTools as a developer
As far as I know the Germin WikIHistory tool only works on mainspace articles. Cyber ported this over to enwiki a while back, it's at http://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/wikihistory/
We've been using SIgma's tool as an alternative, as it supports all namespaces, but it appears all of sigma's tools are down at the moment.
Frankly, other than the article info (revision history) tool, xtools is not in terrible shape. The service goes down every so often, but a simple restart does the trick. I've talked to the labs folks about getting our nifty bash scripts back up to do that job for us, and I can try to focus on that in the near future. Sometimes I doubt we should bother with a rewrite. It's a lot of work and I get the hunch none of us really want to do it.
That being said, I'm actively having fun developing my own suite of tools, beginning with a non-automated edit counter https://tools.wmflabs.org/musikanimal/nonautomated_edits. From there I look forward to creating similar tools to what we already enjoy with other tools, but I'm just doing it again both for fun and to offer an additional line of services in the event the others go down. Working on xtools should be no different, in that you should be having fun doing it. Any added pressure to get things done compromises this important aspect. If you are unable to fulfill a deadline you made, oh well. The only situation where unfulfilled volunteer work should truly matter is where it was court-ordered.
On 7 September 2015 at 02:07, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, I wrote that we need article histories, but I meant page histories.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everyone,
I joined this list not long ago in the hope of finding out what progress has been made. My problem is that I have no technical skills, so I can't help with this, don't know how much time is involved, and can't find out why the tools suddenly stopped working. Or why Wikimedia Labs is so often unreachable.
As Chris says, we really need some of these tools, in particular article histories. Is there anyone on this list who is willing to make WikiHistory work? It currently works for articles only. Eugene said he would carry it over from the German Wikipedia, but I don't know what happened.
WikiHistory looks good and is very stable on the German WP, so that seems like something worth working on.
Sarah
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
As we appear to be throwing around with accusaions here - or trying to feel accused, I want out that part of the dilemma is directly attributed to users who in their enthusiasm to be helpful took on more than they had time and/or knowledge to fulfil. In any volunteer community this always ends badly. The moral of the story is: Don’t say you will if there’s a likelyhood you can’t, and if later you can’t, tell us so and don’t string us along with excuses however valid they may be.
The problem we are faced with right now is that time has run out and there is no time left for people to learn php or Python while they address these 2-year-old problems; what we need from among our 22 million registered accounts are two or three people who speak php and Python as fluently as I speak English, French, and German.
I am not a code writer. Belive me when I say that if I were, I’d be doing it all myself. I am one of the regular users of these tools and I can assure you all that they are not some little gimmicks for the curiosity of newbies. They are essential for example, for providing statistics to back up proposals for implementing serious measures to combat some of the worst things that happen on Wikipedia. Or perhaps none of you are aware of Orangemoody, for example.
We Thank you all for the effort you have put into these issues.
I rest my case.
Kudpung
On 7Sep, 2015, at 10:18, L235 Wikipedia l235@l235.net wrote:
Respectfully, Kudpung, I agree with Cyberpower678 that your messages to this list have been less productive than they could have been. They have essentially been "the beatings will continue until morale improves"-style messages, and we all know how well those work out.
For the record, I have met all of my commitments to this project. I have continued to make one hour a week of my time available to this project, to do anything I see that I can do within the capabilities I specified by email to the list (sysadminning, making an effort to wrangle bugs, but not primary development). I have continued to study PHP a little. I made my limitations very, very clear before I was added as a maintainer of this project.
Wikipedia is not, should not be, and has never been our top priority. Each of us have our own career, our own boss (or instructor/professor/etc.), and our own social lives separate from Wikipedia. We are all volunteers. Although we should honor our commitments (to emphasize again, I did, and beyond – IRC/etc.), it is unreasonable to blame us for factors outside of our own control.
I recognize that xTools is vital to the project, and I have been making efforts (even studying PHP, basically from scratch) to try to fix it. Please feel free to send us messages describing the usage of this tool by the community, and you are more than welcome to start contributing directly (i.e. hack, code, sysadmin, etc.), but until you do, please don't try to *supervise* us. (Again, suggestions, reminders, etc., are appreciated regardless.)
I am trying to get in contact with Eugene to see if he can come back on the project.
Respectfully, L235, in my role as a maintainer and sysadmin of xTools
Kudpung, I honestly felt like your badgering was more like pushing me around and demanding I do work on xTools in all off my free time. I never said I had a bountiful amount of free time. I've always asserted that I was missing the time needed to fully dedicate to the project, but I was also the only one doing something code related. Now no one is. I was never being dishonest about my lack of time. If you really need someone who can truly dedicate the time, talk to Sigma. From what I gather, he's more capable anyways. Anyways, I'm now focusing my time clearing out the backlog over at bot requests, and maybe some RfC closures.
Cyberpower678
English Wikipedia Account Creation Team
Mailing List Moderator
On Sep 6, 2015, at 08:52, Chris cs@edubkk.org wrote:
" The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking. “
This is really the only reason. I’ve been encouraging, then badgering, then badgering some more - but not bullying. And if we had had a clear and honest answer like this months ago perhaps we would have found the people we need.
Now, because of recent events, Wikipedia is in the shit, and we’re all up shit creek without a paddle and can’t do anything about it.
Kudpung
On 6Sep, 2015, at 19:45, Maximilian Doerr maximilian.doerr@gmail.com wrote:
The first reason is that xTools requires a great deal of person's time which is something I'm lacking.
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools
Maintainers: Cyberpower678, Technical 13, MusikAnimal, Elee, Nakon, L235 xTools mailing list xTools@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/xtools