On Tue, November 4, 2014 5:55 pm, Brion Vibber wrote:
Hmm, is Motion-JPEG no longer a thing, or does it not scale to the quality or bitrates needed nowadays? Used to be pretty standard back in the days I was fiddling with video editing 10-15 years ago (MJPEG would be packaged usually in .avi or .mov depending on the platform's preferred video container).
Motion-JPEG is a thing to the extent that IP cameras deliver JPEG-over-RTSP/RTP -- a fair number of cameras on-market do, others do on-the-fly MP4 streaming, and some do both. Thus, saving the incoming M-JPEG stream is means of (virtually) lossless recording. Likewise if you have HW acceleration available to do on-the-fly JPEG conversion from raw bayer recording modes.
The LibrePlanet 2013 videos hosted on media.libreplanet.org were recording in JPEG+Vorbis-in-Matroska (18FPS) then converted to WebM for upload. There's no corresponding container binding I'm aware of for JPEG-in-Ogg but in theory this can be done without much fuss. In any case the video/editing quality, command-line tools, and patent status (IANAL) is really quite suitable for use in the free software community but widespread adoption is another issue altogether. The format also works well within Pitivi.
There's arbitrary JPEG-in-Matroska upload restrictions on popular video hosting services: the backend ffmpeg binary is able to decode and convert just fine but the format hasn't been explicitly whitelisted due to _______. I would be happy to see JPEG-in-Matroska adoption by the WMF and community.
Sincerely, George
On 11/7/14, George Chriss gschriss@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, November 4, 2014 5:55 pm, Brion Vibber wrote:
Hmm, is Motion-JPEG no longer a thing, or does it not scale to the quality or bitrates needed nowadays? Used to be pretty standard back in the days I was fiddling with video editing 10-15 years ago (MJPEG would be packaged usually in .avi or .mov depending on the platform's preferred video container).
Motion-JPEG is a thing to the extent that IP cameras deliver JPEG-over-RTSP/RTP -- a fair number of cameras on-market do, others do on-the-fly MP4 streaming, and some do both. Thus, saving the incoming M-JPEG stream is means of (virtually) lossless recording. Likewise if you have HW acceleration available to do on-the-fly JPEG conversion from raw bayer recording modes.
The LibrePlanet 2013 videos hosted on media.libreplanet.org were recording in JPEG+Vorbis-in-Matroska (18FPS) then converted to WebM for upload. There's no corresponding container binding I'm aware of for JPEG-in-Ogg but in theory this can be done without much fuss. In any case the video/editing quality, command-line tools, and patent status (IANAL) is really quite suitable for use in the free software community but widespread adoption is another issue altogether. The format also works well within Pitivi.
There's arbitrary JPEG-in-Matroska upload restrictions on popular video hosting services: the backend ffmpeg binary is able to decode and convert just fine but the format hasn't been explicitly whitelisted due to _______. I would be happy to see JPEG-in-Matroska adoption by the WMF and community.
Sincerely, George
I think it would make sense to enable mkv contained video, limited to free codecs. In addition to MJPEG, there is also FFV1 (which based on my googling) is a lossless codec serving a similar niche as MJPEG2000 (and hence MJPEG and "mox" maybe?), but also starting to gain some popularity in the video archiving world (If "edit retention" is the magic trigger word for getting things done on wikipedia, "glam" is probably the magic word for getting stuff done related to media, albeit not anywhere near as strongly).
The only issue is that mkv can also be used for non-free codecs [1], so from a usability prespective it might confuse users if only some mkv files are allowed (I wish people would use a unique extension for each <container, video codec, audio codec> triple, make life so less confusing).
--bawolff
[1] http://www.matroska.org/technical/specs/codecid/index.html
So just for kicks, I tried using ffmpeg to convert a reasonably high-bitrate HD Theora+Vorbis .ogv[1] to MJPEG+FLAC .mkv.
[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AAlaskan_Huskies_-_Sled_Dogs_-_Ival...
Conversion test command:
for qual in 2 4 8 16 31 do ffmpeg -i 'Alaskan_Huskies_-_Sled_Dogs_-_Ivalo_2013.ogv' -c:v mjpeg -q:v $qual -c:a flac q$qual-alaskan-huskies.mkv done
The results play in VLC and look pretty good at quality levels 2 (best) through 8 (middling), with a bitrate ranging from around 50-20 megabits/s; past 8 it starts looking a bit uggy.
An MJPEG .mkv file can also be remuxed to .avi or .mov containers with no further loss of video quality by copying the MJPEG frames as-is (or one could produce an MJPEG .avi or .mov directly). This .mov file plays in QuickTime Player on OS X 10.10 and in Windows Media Player on Windows 8.1:
ffmpeg -i q2-alaskan-huskies.mkv -c:v copy -c:a pcm_s16le alaskan-huskies.mov
If there's no patent impediment to using the QuickTime/MP4 *container* format with MJPEG and PCM audio... might want to seriously consider that as an archival format that should be usable directly in existing editing software rather than fiddling with .mkv.
(I don't know if MJPEG can handle 10-bit video or full 4:4:4 chroma sampling in an interoperable way, though, and something else might get better compression ratios while maintaining quality.)
I'd put the actual demo files up for download as samples, but they're huge and I'm low on space on my personal server. ;)
-- brion
On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Brian Wolff bawolff@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/7/14, George Chriss gschriss@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, November 4, 2014 5:55 pm, Brion Vibber wrote:
Hmm, is Motion-JPEG no longer a thing, or does it not scale to the quality or bitrates needed nowadays? Used to be pretty standard back in the days I was fiddling with video editing 10-15 years ago (MJPEG would be packaged usually in .avi or .mov depending on the platform's preferred video container).
Motion-JPEG is a thing to the extent that IP cameras deliver JPEG-over-RTSP/RTP -- a fair number of cameras on-market do, others do on-the-fly MP4 streaming, and some do both. Thus, saving the incoming M-JPEG stream is means of (virtually) lossless recording. Likewise if
you
have HW acceleration available to do on-the-fly JPEG conversion from raw bayer recording modes.
The LibrePlanet 2013 videos hosted on media.libreplanet.org were
recording
in JPEG+Vorbis-in-Matroska (18FPS) then converted to WebM for upload. There's no corresponding container binding I'm aware of for JPEG-in-Ogg
but
in theory this can be done without much fuss. In any case the video/editing quality, command-line tools, and patent status (IANAL) is really quite suitable for use in the free software community but
widespread
adoption is another issue altogether. The format also works well within Pitivi.
There's arbitrary JPEG-in-Matroska upload restrictions on popular video hosting services: the backend ffmpeg binary is able to decode and convert just fine but the format hasn't been explicitly whitelisted due to _______. I would be happy to see JPEG-in-Matroska adoption by the WMF
and
community.
Sincerely, George
I think it would make sense to enable mkv contained video, limited to free codecs. In addition to MJPEG, there is also FFV1 (which based on my googling) is a lossless codec serving a similar niche as MJPEG2000 (and hence MJPEG and "mox" maybe?), but also starting to gain some popularity in the video archiving world (If "edit retention" is the magic trigger word for getting things done on wikipedia, "glam" is probably the magic word for getting stuff done related to media, albeit not anywhere near as strongly).
The only issue is that mkv can also be used for non-free codecs [1], so from a usability prespective it might confuse users if only some mkv files are allowed (I wish people would use a unique extension for each <container, video codec, audio codec> triple, make life so less confusing).
--bawolff
[1] http://www.matroska.org/technical/specs/codecid/index.html
Wikivideo-l mailing list Wikivideo-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivideo-l
I can also confirm that Adobe Premiere Pro will consume such MJPEG+PCM .mov files on both Mac and Windows without additional plugins, and can export them on Mac as-is or on Windows with QuickTime 7 installed. (On Windows without QuickTime, Premiere seems to have some built-in QuickTime support but doesn't allow selecting MJPEG or JPEG as an export codec.)
Settings for export: * format: QuickTime * video codec: Photo - JPEG * audio codec: uncompressed
-- brion
On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
So just for kicks, I tried using ffmpeg to convert a reasonably high-bitrate HD Theora+Vorbis .ogv[1] to MJPEG+FLAC .mkv.
[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AAlaskan_Huskies_-_Sled_Dogs_-_Ival...
Conversion test command:
for qual in 2 4 8 16 31 do ffmpeg -i 'Alaskan_Huskies_-_Sled_Dogs_-_Ivalo_2013.ogv' -c:v mjpeg -q:v $qual -c:a flac q$qual-alaskan-huskies.mkv done
The results play in VLC and look pretty good at quality levels 2 (best) through 8 (middling), with a bitrate ranging from around 50-20 megabits/s; past 8 it starts looking a bit uggy.
An MJPEG .mkv file can also be remuxed to .avi or .mov containers with no further loss of video quality by copying the MJPEG frames as-is (or one could produce an MJPEG .avi or .mov directly). This .mov file plays in QuickTime Player on OS X 10.10 and in Windows Media Player on Windows 8.1:
ffmpeg -i q2-alaskan-huskies.mkv -c:v copy -c:a pcm_s16le alaskan-huskies.mov
If there's no patent impediment to using the QuickTime/MP4 *container* format with MJPEG and PCM audio... might want to seriously consider that as an archival format that should be usable directly in existing editing software rather than fiddling with .mkv.
(I don't know if MJPEG can handle 10-bit video or full 4:4:4 chroma sampling in an interoperable way, though, and something else might get better compression ratios while maintaining quality.)
I'd put the actual demo files up for download as samples, but they're huge and I'm low on space on my personal server. ;)
-- brion
On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Brian Wolff bawolff@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/7/14, George Chriss gschriss@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, November 4, 2014 5:55 pm, Brion Vibber wrote:
Hmm, is Motion-JPEG no longer a thing, or does it not scale to the quality or bitrates needed nowadays? Used to be pretty standard back in the
days
I was fiddling with video editing 10-15 years ago (MJPEG would be
packaged
usually in .avi or .mov depending on the platform's preferred video container).
Motion-JPEG is a thing to the extent that IP cameras deliver JPEG-over-RTSP/RTP -- a fair number of cameras on-market do, others do on-the-fly MP4 streaming, and some do both. Thus, saving the incoming M-JPEG stream is means of (virtually) lossless recording. Likewise if
you
have HW acceleration available to do on-the-fly JPEG conversion from raw bayer recording modes.
The LibrePlanet 2013 videos hosted on media.libreplanet.org were
recording
in JPEG+Vorbis-in-Matroska (18FPS) then converted to WebM for upload. There's no corresponding container binding I'm aware of for JPEG-in-Ogg
but
in theory this can be done without much fuss. In any case the video/editing quality, command-line tools, and patent status (IANAL) is really quite suitable for use in the free software community but
widespread
adoption is another issue altogether. The format also works well within Pitivi.
There's arbitrary JPEG-in-Matroska upload restrictions on popular video hosting services: the backend ffmpeg binary is able to decode and
convert
just fine but the format hasn't been explicitly whitelisted due to _______. I would be happy to see JPEG-in-Matroska adoption by the WMF
and
community.
Sincerely, George
I think it would make sense to enable mkv contained video, limited to free codecs. In addition to MJPEG, there is also FFV1 (which based on my googling) is a lossless codec serving a similar niche as MJPEG2000 (and hence MJPEG and "mox" maybe?), but also starting to gain some popularity in the video archiving world (If "edit retention" is the magic trigger word for getting things done on wikipedia, "glam" is probably the magic word for getting stuff done related to media, albeit not anywhere near as strongly).
The only issue is that mkv can also be used for non-free codecs [1], so from a usability prespective it might confuse users if only some mkv files are allowed (I wish people would use a unique extension for each <container, video codec, audio codec> triple, make life so less confusing).
--bawolff
[1] http://www.matroska.org/technical/specs/codecid/index.html
Wikivideo-l mailing list Wikivideo-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivideo-l
Perhaps of related interest:
http://www.digitizationguidelines.gov/guidelines/MXF_app_spec.html
Apparently the US Library of Congress has been archiving videos as MXF (the container format that MOX is planned to be based off) with lossless-mode JPEG 2000 for the video payload... and they're pushing a baseline format around that for digital video preservation.
(Note that JPEG 2000 is a rather different format from classic JPEG, using a wavelet instead of DCT transform, and has much poorer support from tools in general than JPEG or Motion-JPEG.)
ffmpeg has recently landed support for JPEG 2000 in MXF < https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/1542%3E but it's not in the most recent release, so I can't test file generation... but it will let you encode JPEG 2000 in other containers (.mov, .mkv, etc) and I can unfortunately confirm that it encodes vveerryy sslloowwllyy compared to classic Motion-JPEG.
Premiere and Final Cut seem to have some options for MXF handling with various AVC-based codec modes, but I don't see JPEG 2000-specific options.
-- brion
On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
I can also confirm that Adobe Premiere Pro will consume such MJPEG+PCM .mov files on both Mac and Windows without additional plugins, and can export them on Mac as-is or on Windows with QuickTime 7 installed. (On Windows without QuickTime, Premiere seems to have some built-in QuickTime support but doesn't allow selecting MJPEG or JPEG as an export codec.)
Settings for export:
- format: QuickTime
- video codec: Photo - JPEG
- audio codec: uncompressed
-- brion
On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
So just for kicks, I tried using ffmpeg to convert a reasonably high-bitrate HD Theora+Vorbis .ogv[1] to MJPEG+FLAC .mkv.
[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AAlaskan_Huskies_-_Sled_Dogs_-_Ival...
Conversion test command:
for qual in 2 4 8 16 31 do ffmpeg -i 'Alaskan_Huskies_-_Sled_Dogs_-_Ivalo_2013.ogv' -c:v mjpeg -q:v $qual -c:a flac q$qual-alaskan-huskies.mkv done
The results play in VLC and look pretty good at quality levels 2 (best) through 8 (middling), with a bitrate ranging from around 50-20 megabits/s; past 8 it starts looking a bit uggy.
An MJPEG .mkv file can also be remuxed to .avi or .mov containers with no further loss of video quality by copying the MJPEG frames as-is (or one could produce an MJPEG .avi or .mov directly). This .mov file plays in QuickTime Player on OS X 10.10 and in Windows Media Player on Windows 8.1:
ffmpeg -i q2-alaskan-huskies.mkv -c:v copy -c:a pcm_s16le alaskan-huskies.mov
If there's no patent impediment to using the QuickTime/MP4 *container* format with MJPEG and PCM audio... might want to seriously consider that as an archival format that should be usable directly in existing editing software rather than fiddling with .mkv.
(I don't know if MJPEG can handle 10-bit video or full 4:4:4 chroma sampling in an interoperable way, though, and something else might get better compression ratios while maintaining quality.)
I'd put the actual demo files up for download as samples, but they're huge and I'm low on space on my personal server. ;)
-- brion
On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Brian Wolff bawolff@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/7/14, George Chriss gschriss@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, November 4, 2014 5:55 pm, Brion Vibber wrote:
Hmm, is Motion-JPEG no longer a thing, or does it not scale to the quality or bitrates needed nowadays? Used to be pretty standard back in the
days
I was fiddling with video editing 10-15 years ago (MJPEG would be
packaged
usually in .avi or .mov depending on the platform's preferred video container).
Motion-JPEG is a thing to the extent that IP cameras deliver JPEG-over-RTSP/RTP -- a fair number of cameras on-market do, others do on-the-fly MP4 streaming, and some do both. Thus, saving the incoming M-JPEG stream is means of (virtually) lossless recording. Likewise if
you
have HW acceleration available to do on-the-fly JPEG conversion from
raw
bayer recording modes.
The LibrePlanet 2013 videos hosted on media.libreplanet.org were
recording
in JPEG+Vorbis-in-Matroska (18FPS) then converted to WebM for upload. There's no corresponding container binding I'm aware of for
JPEG-in-Ogg but
in theory this can be done without much fuss. In any case the video/editing quality, command-line tools, and patent status (IANAL) is really quite suitable for use in the free software community but
widespread
adoption is another issue altogether. The format also works well
within
Pitivi.
There's arbitrary JPEG-in-Matroska upload restrictions on popular video hosting services: the backend ffmpeg binary is able to decode and
convert
just fine but the format hasn't been explicitly whitelisted due to _______. I would be happy to see JPEG-in-Matroska adoption by the WMF
and
community.
Sincerely, George
I think it would make sense to enable mkv contained video, limited to free codecs. In addition to MJPEG, there is also FFV1 (which based on my googling) is a lossless codec serving a similar niche as MJPEG2000 (and hence MJPEG and "mox" maybe?), but also starting to gain some popularity in the video archiving world (If "edit retention" is the magic trigger word for getting things done on wikipedia, "glam" is probably the magic word for getting stuff done related to media, albeit not anywhere near as strongly).
The only issue is that mkv can also be used for non-free codecs [1], so from a usability prespective it might confuse users if only some mkv files are allowed (I wish people would use a unique extension for each <container, video codec, audio codec> triple, make life so less confusing).
--bawolff
[1] http://www.matroska.org/technical/specs/codecid/index.html
Wikivideo-l mailing list Wikivideo-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivideo-l
I'm at a bit of a loss over avoiding confusion in filename extensions. It's an issue with any container format that accepts various payloads -- maybe it's possible to run pre-upload JavaScript to evaluate the file and explain to the uploader what's going on, in a UI/UX-friendly way? Other ideas?
On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
[...] If there's no patent impediment to using the QuickTime/MP4 *container*
format with MJPEG and PCM audio... might want to
seriously consider that as an archival format that should be usable
directly in existing editing software rather than fiddling
with .mkv.
I think it would make sense to tease out a separation between server-side format extensibility and end-user reliance on particular formats: for example, allow MJPEG-in-MOV uploads, re-mux that upon upload to MJPEG-in-MKV, have MJPEG-in-MKV be the 'featured format', and again allow download as MJPEG-in-MOV. Re-muxing between container formats is computationally cheap and can generally be done on-the-fly.[1]
On the 'format extensibility' side of things: there are a few non-obvious use-cases that are only possible by using libre formats. The first example that comes to mind is oggz-chop[2], which returns "the part of an Ogg file between given start and/or end times" according to a simplified URL (e.g., http://.../video/0:20:00/0:40:00). The ability to selectively download time segments of interest is particularly important when we're using high-bandwidth, lossless video.
Sincerely, George / User:GChriss
[1] This of course should be benchmarked [2] See: http://xiph.org/oggz/
wikivideo-l@lists.wikimedia.org