On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 5:04 AM, Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Kyaw Tun wrote:
What is myanmarwikipedia.org http://myanmarwikipedia.org/? How did you get permission to use our name? Did you ask anyone before doing this? I don't need any permission for domain registration.
No, but it is our longstanding custom that people should not use the name "Wikipedia" for a separate website without asking first. Are you planning to use this for-profit? Who is the owner of it? Will you donate the domain name to the Foundation and assure me that you are not trying to separate the Myanmar community from Wikipedia?
What do you mean NO? I respect "Wikipedia", but not you. It is not for profit and also mean content for my.wikipedia.org. However the donation will NOT go to my.wikipedia.org. We will NOT donate the domain name, instead I request the Foundation to lease temporary domain name of zawgyi.wikipedia.org. This will assue that the Foundation has some control of our work.
It is rather appreance that myanmarwikipedia.org is to seperate Myanmar community, for those who love Zawgyi and for those who love Unicode 5.1.
What do you mean "costly"? There is ZERO COST to what Michael is
proposing. We need to discuss at length for this issue.
Yes, I am glad we will now have a mailing list so I can understand what you mean.
Could you clearify that Mr Eversion's proposed translation task is ZERO COST or not?
Kyaw Tun wrote:
What do you mean NO? I respect "Wikipedia", but not you.
I respect you, and I ask you to do the same for me. I am trying to be helpful here and bring all parties together for the best interest of the Myanmar language community.
What I mean by "no" is that it is not appropriate for you to run a website named "myanmarwikipedia.org" without permission or assistance from us.
It is not for profit and also mean content for my.wikipedia.org http://my.wikipedia.org. However the donation will NOT go to my.wikipedia.org http://my.wikipedia.org. We will NOT donate the domain name, instead I request the Foundation to lease temporary domain name of zawgyi.wikipedia.org http://zawgyi.wikipedia.org. This will assue that the Foundation has some control of our work.
It is entirely possible that something like that will be done, but first we need to continue our respectful conversation so that, working together, we are all confident that we have decided on a good path forward.
It is rather appreance that myanmarwikipedia.org http://myanmarwikipedia.org is to seperate Myanmar community, for those who love Zawgyi and for those who love Unicode 5.1.
I oppose any separation of the Myanmar community on the basis of loving a particular font! We are speaking of issues of sharing knowledge with all people - and it is important that the community be kept strong and working together in harmony for that goal. There is a complex situation with the fonts, yes. But the solution is not to split into two websites, the solution is to find a way to support everyone together.
Could you clearify that Mr Eversion's proposed translation task is ZERO COST or not?
There will be no cost to you or the community. Beyond that, I don't know what you are asking.
--Jimbo
At 07:55 -0400 2008-07-25, Jimmy Wales wrote:
I oppose any separation of the Myanmar community on the basis of loving a particular font!
I am sure that the Zawgyi glyphs can be converted into a compliant font.
We are speaking of issues of sharing knowledge with all people - and it is important that the community be kept strong and working together in harmony for that goal. There is a complex situation with the fonts, yes. But the solution is not to split into two websites, the solution is to find a way to support everyone together.
As I have said, I think it is no harm for them to be working away creating some content, since that content can be converted once we get my.wiki sorted out. A staged upgrade, assuming that the other site agrees (good will and all) to shut itself down when the time comes.
Michael Everson wrote:
As I have said, I think it is no harm for them to be working away creating some content, since that content can be converted once we get my.wiki sorted out. A staged upgrade, assuming that the other site agrees (good will and all) to shut itself down when the time comes.
I am saying, from my long experience, that this is more difficult than it might seem. People working in separate groups forge social relationships that are difficult to merge. I have seen many attempts to merge wikis... it seldom works out. One of the problems is that two different groups of people will write an article "Moon" or come up with a standard table for displaying data about countries or... there are just many editorial choices which will be equally good but different.
And then people will fight in a horrible way upon the attempted merge.
If there were no choice but to do it, then I would reluctantly agree to set up zagawyi.wikipedia.org. But if there is a way to have the people who would be working there adding content in such a way that it is Unicode 5.1 compliant, while being constantly prompted to upgrade as soon as they can, then we (a) keep the community together (b) do a better job of promoting upgrades than if we had a site out there which serves the function of Wikipedia while not doing anything about pushing people to upgrade.
--Jimbo
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 9:14 PM, Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Michael Everson wrote:
As I have said, I think it is no harm for them to be working away creating some content, since that content can be converted once we get my.wiki sorted out. A staged upgrade, assuming that the other site agrees (good will and all) to shut itself down when the time comes.
I am saying, from my long experience, that this is more difficult than it might seem. People working in separate groups forge social relationships that are difficult to merge. I have seen many attempts to merge wikis... it seldom works out. One of the problems is that two different groups of people will write an article "Moon" or come up with a standard table for displaying data about countries or... there are just many editorial choices which will be equally good but different.
True, only more sensitive about wording in Myanmar community.
And then people will fight in a horrible way upon the attempted merge.
If there were no choice but to do it, then I would reluctantly agree to set up zagawyi.wikipedia.org.
If Wikipedia Foundation lease zawgyi.wikipedia.org temporarily, we agree to share the data in most confortable form and provide conversion solution also. We will also promote Unicode 5.1.
But if there is a way to have the people who would be working there adding content in such a way that it is Unicode 5.1 compliant, while being constantly prompted to upgrade as soon as they can, then we (a) keep the community together
Acutally there is virtually only Zawgyi community. Just need to upgrade them with standard unicode.
(b) do a better job of promoting upgrades than if we had a site out there which serves the function of Wikipedia while not doing anything about pushing people to upgrade.
In contrast to your believe, we (founders) are pro 5.1, but users are not. We will do to promote 5.1, but just don't want to hurt Zawgyi lover. Anything bad about Zawgyi is unacceptable, without talking bad about Myanmar Unicode versions. Being a standard don't mean good. I see a lot of wrong designhttp://myanmaritpros.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1445004:BlogPost:44018 in previous and current Myanmar Unicode models. I really hate cover up with *We Are Standard* words.
Okisan
At 19:44 +0900 2008-07-26, Kyaw Tun wrote:
If there were no choice but to do it, then I would reluctantly agree to set up http://zagawyi.wikipedia.org/zagawyi.wikipedia.org.
If Wikipedia Foundation lease http://zawgyi.wikipedia.orgzawgyi.wikipedia.org temporarily, we agree to share the data in most confortable form and provide conversion solution also.
I believe this will result in a permanent split and that it will impede take-up of Unicode
We will also promote Unicode 5.1.
You should be doing this NOW, and you should NOT be making the creation of http://zagawyi.wikipedia.org/zagawyi.wikipedia.org a pre-condition for promoting Unicode 5.1.
Actions speak louder than words.
In contrast to your believe, we (founders) are pro 5.1, but users are not.
I don't believe for a minute that users think about the encoding model of their fonts.
I see http://myanmaritpros.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1445004:BlogPost:44018a lot of wrong design in previous and current Myanmar Unicode models. I really hate cover up with We Are Standard words.
Unicode is the international, world standard for the encoding of text in the Myanmar script. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant. The best minds in this industry have recognized that there were problems with Unicode 4.1 (mostly having to do with support for minority languages) and Unicode 5.1 corrects this.
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Kyaw Tun wrote:
What do you mean NO? I respect "Wikipedia", but not you.
I respect you, and I ask you to do the same for me. I am trying to be helpful here and bring all parties together for the best interest of the Myanmar language community.
Thanks. I do if you have unbias and objective thinking.
What I mean by "no" is that it is not appropriate for you to run a website named "myanmarwikipedia.org" without permission or assistance from us.
I am following Wikipedia ways. Our group will be happy if we get assistance from you.
It is not for profit and also mean content for my.wikipedia.org <
http://my.wikipedia.org%3E. However the donation will NOT go to my.wikipedia.org < http://my.wikipedia.org%3E. We will NOT donate the domain name, instead I request the Foundation to lease temporary domain name of zawgyi.wikipedia.org < http://zawgyi.wikipedia.org%3E. This will assue that the Foundation has some control of our work.
It is entirely possible that something like that will be done, but first we need to continue our respectful conversation so that, working together, we are all confident that we have decided on a good path forward.
That is usual way of talk at first. Thanks.
It is rather appreance that myanmarwikipedia.org <
http://myanmarwikipedia.org%3E is to seperate Myanmar community, for those who love Zawgyi and for those who love Unicode 5.1.
I oppose any separation of the Myanmar community on the basis of loving a particular font!
Who is the first seperating?
We are speaking of issues of sharing knowledge with all people - and it is important that the community be kept strong and working together in harmony for that goal. There is a complex situation with the fonts, yes. But the solution is not to split into two websites, the solution is to find a way to support everyone together.
I hope you do find a way.
Could you clearify that Mr Eversion's proposed translation task is ZERO
COST or not?
There will be no cost to you or the community. Beyond that, I don't know what you are asking.
Nice words.
--Jimbo
Best regards, Okisan