hi all,
at this point i am not blaming anyone or faulting any article related to any ideology,
history or politics. but wikimedia has to be extra careful as chauvanistic right wing
`intellectual workers' trying to hide secular and impartial views which have been
enshrined in the Indian concept of social equity.. i offer some links so that there is
adequate alert when dealing with such issues;
http://www.southasianmedia.net/magazine/journal/critique_hindutva.htm
http://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/20130/
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7692067/Hindutva-Fascism
http://www.sabrang.com/hnfund/sacw/part2.html
www.fides.org/eng/documents/REFLECTION_on_Hindutva.doc
many of the points from these links need to be included in the article on Hindutva
Basavaraj N Itnal
--- On Thu, 3/10/11, Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-in-blr] [Wikimediaindia-l] ToI front page: Rs 1 cr for Sanskrit
WP
To: "gokul das" <gokuldas.1950(a)gmail.com>
Cc: "IndiaMailing list for Wikimedians / Wikipedians in & from Bangalore"
<wikimedia-in-blr(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2011, 1:01 PM
gokul and co,
how're u? i see a lot of point of views here on history without reading much of it. i
see a lot of theories against history without knowing it. is this a propaganda against
historical facts in a bid to tie a blind fold on the eyes of the youth..
but no amount of campaign to spread a fallcy can deny the fact that manu smriti, vedas and
upanishads which formed a casteist society and preached treatment of women like beasts
were all written in sanskrit..
though i see a lot of prejudices and i dont think you would consider them, some random
citations;
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=rSF8b5hbyP0C&pg=PT125&lpg=PT125&…
http://hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1808/18080950.htm
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_51_100/obscurantism.htm
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=maFRVrOe1PQC&printsec=frontcover&…
http://manukhsi.blogspot.com/2010/10/ram-mandir-attempt-to-reimpose.html
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/1781177-how-brahmins-killed-buddh…
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Women_In_Hinduism
see if you can find a balance. gud luck.
Basavaraj N Itnal
--- On Thu, 3/10/11, gokul das <gokuldas.1950(a)gmail.com> wrote:
From: gokul das <gokuldas.1950(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-in-blr] [Wikimediaindia-l] ToI front page: Rs 1 cr for Sanskrit
WP
To: "Basavaraj Itnal" <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com>
Cc: "IndiaMailing list for Wikimedians / Wikipedians in & from Bangalore"
<wikimedia-in-blr(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2011, 3:04 AM
Hi All,
The discussion is getting intense and it is interesting. Yes, I have not read
history but for the first 50 or so pages of "Discovery of India" and a few pages
of college history text books of my friends' kids.
I have equal reverence for all subjects in arts & science that can hold the
imagination of the plant and the animal mind.
I have not dismissed History ,it is as relevant a subject as Finance in niche
universities ,the elite learners in the past 30 to 50 years who wiped out the wealth of
the world by 10 to 12 trillion US dollars,
and every 8th American lost his home to mortgage crisis.Good, our RBI is smart enough not
to ape the
Federal Reserve of US in the last decade, and hope the rest of the world including Europe
learnt a lesson.
Hey Gokul,Don't deviate from the main issue!
Still, I need to see to believe your writing,Quote"in medeival times,
non-brahmins were barred from even hearing a word of sanskrit leave alone learning it.
even brahmin women were treated as `non-brahmin'. if any non-brahmin heard it, a
severe and exemplary punishement was given."Unquote, See, this is how a
scienceman's mind works.Where is the experimental proof for me to believe?Is that
happening in front of my perceivable senses?If that happens I shall believe! No
universities can convince my mind to believe some writings in Sanskrit or English or of
any other great languages.
For me the term"Historical Fact"is not conceivable as I need that to
happen in front of my senses.But,I don't and can't expect the same view from
others.That is about the 'freedom of choice' on expressions,beliefs and
scholarships. Scholarships on History is as contributive as Maths,Painting ,
Astronomy,Astrology,Chemistry,Music,Sculpture,Aerodynamics,I mean any chapter on any
subject of
Arts&Science.Or for that matter Scholarship in Sanskrit.That is my argument.
,
Because of my personal application and the effects of reciting mantras not
always in Sanskrit,I have certain practically developed regards for Sanskrit though I am a
novice on either Sanskrit or History.That doesn't mean I want others to practice what
I practice.That is the freedom to practice.
By the way is there any methodology to practice "History" which can
give me happiness and enhance me to be a better and contributing individual.If there is
any, I would like to try a new way to uplift myself to be a better human.I am not joking
or sarcastic , I am dead serious.
Again,I differ with the wordings," that was the time when all knowledge
was held in sanskrit." All
the languages were evolving on the same platform available at that point of time and
nobody can ever stop the process of evolution of any activity."Survival of the
Fittest" holds good throughout history.The strong kshatriays,vaisias and sudras could
have man slaughtered the bhramins to prove their point like EVR Periyar or for that matter
Karunanidhi of today.
Food,Cloth and Shelter were the fundamental necessity of humans and not
knowledge.Knowledge is only a "Side Dish" for human existence, and again this
is my freedom of expressing things in my own way which I can't impose on others.
If somebody practices "untouchability" on others , they should
simply reciprocate the same on that somebody. This so called "Untouchability" is
also happening all over the world all through the history.
As it is now ,some white skinned prostitutes do not customize other races and vice
versa.The importance of "untouchability" stops at that in my view. When you see
a bhramin, you turn your face in disgust and walk away and make him know that in your own
way. Nobody stops you.That is how I handle "Untouchability " in airports,malls ,
theaters and any public places.It is happening everyday around you everywhere and it is
the individual strength anyone need to handle the situation."The practitioners are
equally scared of the others" is my humble observation.
My day is calling!!!! Some other time, some other day I shall join the
argument with out any bias
and hatred for any views. Thanks for reading !! Love & Regards for all.
Gokuldas
N B C(Note Before Closing): The following writings will be discussed later.You see , how
amusingly creative I am for all my 60 years.
and that knowledge was also basis of caste syestem in Indian sub continent which had
inhuman practice of untouchability. other contribution of this mother of all languages was
sati wherein a woman is burn alive along with her husband's body."
Gokul
On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
gokul,
you say you are 60 years old and i guess you may not have read history as you have
dismissed history as being `far far from truth'.
in medeival times, non-brahmins were barred from even hearing a word of sanskrit leave
alone learning it. even brahmin women were treated as `non-brahmin'. if any
non-brahmin heard it, a severe and exemplary punishement was given. that was the time when
all knowledge was held in sanskrit and that knowledge was also basis of caste syestem in
Indian sub continent which had inhuman practice of untouchability. other contribution of
this mother of all languages was sati wherein a woman is burn alive along with her
husband's body.
now, that is recorded by all historians. and you are trying to mislead the community by
brushing aside these historical facts.
as an Indian i see absolutely no use for Sanskrit and in my view it needs a safe burial.
but if wikipedia seeks to have a knowledge base in that language, i dont object.
my only objection is seeking govt funding for the project. it is immoral to feed this
language the money of tax payers many of whom were possibly its victims.
please start reading history, it is not too late. in earlier mails i have sent a random
list of books and i will suggest some more in the future.
by the way, Bhagavd Gita is the first ever justification of war between brothers.
regards
Basavaraj N Itnal
--- On Sun, 3/6/11, gokul das <gokuldas.1950(a)gmail.com> wrote:
From: gokul das <gokuldas.1950(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-in-blr] [Wikimediaindia-l] ToI front page: Rs 1 cr for Sanskrit
WP
To: "Basavaraj Itnal" <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com>
Cc: "IndiaMailing list for Wikimedians / Wikipedians in & from Bangalore"
<wikimedia-in-blr(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Sunday, March 6, 2011, 9:55 AM
Hi all,
It is amusing to see this much hatred for the "Language of Gods"
and equally amusing to experience the reciprocation from another wikian.
Any amount of argument may not change the deep rooted beliefs but this kind of feeling and
expressions are not healthy among elites.
Show me the proof (Sanskrit as a vehicle for inhuman treatment of humanity).It is
very harsh and needs authenticity.It is as harsh and strong
as my hatred for anything "American" which is baseless but a fact.
So let the healthy debate continue,let us not censor or switch off
individuals.It is a free world anybody can have any opinion on any issue.
Love & Regards.
Gokuldas
On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
hello..enticity
it is interesting to see personal love and devotion for sanskrit is over riding its role
as a vehicle for inhuman treatment of humanity. it is interesting that a smoke screen is
being created on historical facts. hope no attempt will be made to serve truth on piece
mean basis. for, it will strike back and how.e
take care
Basavaraj N Itnal
--- On Sun, 3/6/11, gokul das <gokuldas.1950(a)gmail.com> wrote:
From: gokul das <gokuldas.1950(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-in-blr] [Wikimediaindia-l] ToI front page: Rs 1 cr for Sanskrit
WP
To: "Basavaraj Itnal" <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com>
Cc: "IndiaMailing list for Wikimedians / Wikipedians in & from Bangalore"
<wikimedia-in-blr(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Sunday, March 6, 2011, 2:25 AM
Hi All,
It encourages me to know that someone has the time to read and reflect on my
writings in this forum.I have never experienced this feeling before. It is great. I am
past 60 and probably every professional journalist would have had this experience in their
late teens or early twenties.You see how professions keep us human beings far away from
experiencing some simple common happy feelings for more than 40 years.Is it not silly? But
whom to blame? Our classified knowledge system? Our universities? Our historically
educated
elite society?Can somebody answer?Or is it a too complicated question to answer?
Well ! Hold on Gokul ! You are deviating from what you wanted to say!
On relevance of Sanskrit in India : Whole of 60 years of my existence on this
planet I would have thought of Sanskrit for not more than a few hours,but somehow I have
embedded a strong space in my mind that the "Science of Sanskrit" is unbeatable,
probably better may be the Chinese script where the meaning is figuratively created by
letters.You see Wiki had given me an opportunity to write on a highly revered subject
without having any knowledge about Sanskrit or Mandarin.Is it the power or opportunity
provided by Wiki.
Well! over the years, I was trying to read and understand Bahawad Gita . My
intensely focused attempt gave me very different meaning and insights every time on the
same lines of my reading.Is it meant to be like that? Is it how the language Sanskrit is
designed by the inventors of the language? Is that the way Sanskrit is supposed to evolve?
Is it the way every language is supposed to evolve?
My day is calling me out.I hope Arun will read this post and reflect. I shall
come to this platform some other time.Hail Wiki !! Hail that Australian in UK on bail !
Love and regards to all.
Gokuldas
On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
hi folks,
just an interesting extension of gokul's logic. if all history is `far far far'
from truth, why should wikipedia carry any articles of historical topics at all? doesnt
Wikipedia respect truth? further extension of the same logic; the articles on current
affairs would be history tomorrow and all history is anyways far far from truth, so why
bother wrting for wiki at all?
the truth you can ignore history, history doesnt ignore u. we need to get experts from all
historical perspectives not just one or two. we need constitutional experts to guide us.
they wont come to us as most of them have crossed 80yrs, we have to go to them
tell me what i can do to help.
regards
Basavaraj N Itnal
--- On Thu, 3/3/11, Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-in-blr] [Wikimediaindia-l] ToI front page: Rs 1 cr for Sanskrit
WP
To: "IndiaMailing list for Wikimedians / Wikipedians in & from Bangalore"
<wikimedia-in-blr(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Thursday, March 3, 2011, 3:17 AM
that's an interesting PoV on history, gokul. but that does not mean we should brush
aside history and start writing fallacies. one should say that after reading history not
without reading reading it. i am worried that many wikipedians are college going
(especially IT courses) and they just have no time to read but take fancy to wiki and put
up articles based on some weblinks. how often have they invited neutarl historians,
political observers and constitutional experts to their meet ups? these young people have
assumed that they are experts to themselves! i am not just criticising, if they genuinely
have any interest, i can organise talks..
Basavaraj N Itnal
--- On Wed, 3/2/11, gokul das <gokuldas.1950(a)gmail.com> wrote:
From: gokul das <gokuldas.1950(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-in-blr] [Wikimediaindia-l] ToI front page: Rs 1 cr for Sanskrit
WP
To: "Mailing list for Wikimedians / Wikipedians in & from Bangalore, India"
<wikimedia-in-blr(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 1:12 PM
Hi All,
No history is authentic. Written history depends on the author's upbringing,his
imagination ,his social background , his ethnic background and so many other backgrounds.
So,History is far, far, far away
from truth and so are the interpretations of the reader of History.But it is not bull! It
is worth reading and
interpreting to suit the reader's fancy.That is about the authenticity of History as a
subject. Mind you, I am a trained scienceman and my mind works in this fashion.
Gokuldas
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
prateek,
i dont where this comment on personal vendetta comes from. we must root out sources of
such insinuations.
your comment that wiki is far more neutral than many news channels comes from a lopsided
comparision. news channels and news papers are run extremely transparently and continously
face public scrutiny - elements wiki lacks.
the concept of neutrality in wiki is formulated from a PoV and that PoV tends to buldoze
indigenous PoVs. i have elaborated on most of these points earlier.
thanks.
Basavaraj N Itnal
--- On Mon, 2/28/11, Prateek Ramachandra <prateek.vr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
From: Prateek Ramachandra <prateek.vr(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-in-blr] [Wikimediaindia-l] ToI front page: Rs 1 cr for Sanskrit
WP
To: "Mailing list for Wikimedians / Wikipedians in & from Bangalore, India"
<wikimedia-in-blr(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Monday, February 28, 2011, 9:40 AM
Dear Basavaraj,
Fully agree with you when you speak about Mass Medium..
The same follows here.. its understood..
Wikipedia must not be used for personal vendetta... whenever a good contributor adds/edits
articles in wiki he will certainly add refs... Wikipedia should not be used to post
rubbish theories which have no basis and references...
We too have a pretty good knowledge of what happens around us... I appreciate your
concern that vandals may spoil reputation of Wikipedia and make some articles too
one-sided.... there are thousands of other users who are their to monitor what others are
doing... Its not that easy to have a free run in Wikipedia... With more number of people
editing truth will surely prevail after sometime as you see internet world is not that
developed and matured..
I personally think that Wikipedia is more neutral than scores and scores of News Channels
we have in India... I say this because there is no accountability there... you cannot
reverse what you have said there...MOST are owned directly or indirectly by corporates who
tweak news in a manner they want it to be... you surely would have heard about how
alarming PAID NEWS is these days... The Election Commission has spoken in detail about
it... This cannot happen here at all! That's the point... If any vandal is screwing up
some article... making unsubstantiated allegations... Editors in Wiki will set it right...
I am sure... as time passes Wikipedia will have many many more editors who can keep
Wikipedia clean from Vandals who dream to have a free run here...
Regards,
Prateek Ramachandra.
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
hi arun and co, how r u guys doing?
Since we dont seem to have a mailing list to discuss ethical issues of wiki, i continue to
post.
now lemme try to tell all of you something what i normally tell journalism interns on
their first day;
1. Only becoz you have an access to a mass medium of expression, do not think you are
wiser than any poor illeterate farmer in the last village of this country. In fact, your
learning has just begun.
2. Access to a mass medium is a great opportunity to learn. When i started reading
Indian/world history along with various views on it and Indian/ world polity, most of
today's college kids were not even born but i am yet to form a decisive commentery. so
it is better to carry all view points rather than go without any viewpoints.
3. Whatever be the story, understand social context before putting it up for public
consumption. Every story exists only in a social context and without social relevance even
the best stories can serve anti-soical elements.
4. No story is written. All stories are re-written. So before publishing the story get it
checked by your peers.
Having said that, i must remind all of you that if wikipedians are not discussing the
social relevance of what they are doing, they should start doing so. It is pointless being
wikipedian or being anybody, unless you understand the social context. And dont think that
they had no sense of context before starting Wiki Foundation. They had, but have you asked
them what it was? Ask them, find an answer and then see if it compliments Indian
context. The idea of wikipedia is not concieved in vaccum so dont blindly jump into the
band wagon. There must be a reason why wiki keeps its editors and admins anonymous even
when India has thousands of learned men and women who never say anything anonymously -
however risky it would be to say that.
Often the findings may not suit our ego but ego blocks your understanding. All wikipedians
must read Indian history. you may begin with
1. Indian History by Romila Thapar
2. Indian History by Percieval Spear
3. Indian Independance Movement by Bipin Chandra
4. Freedom at midnight by Dominique lappierre
5. Discovery of India by Nehru
6. Intervals in Politics by Ram Manohar Lohia
7. Caste System by Ram Manohar Lohia
8. Wheels of History by Ram Manohar Lohia
...this list can go on. more later.
regards
Basavaraj N Itnal
--- On Sat, 2/26/11, Arun Ramarathnam <arunram25(a)gmail.com> wrote:
From: Arun Ramarathnam <arunram25(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-in-blr] [Wikimediaindia-l] ToI front page: Rs 1 cr for Sanskrit
WP
To: "Basavaraj Itnal" <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com>
Cc: "IndiaMailing list for Wikimedians / Wikipedians in & from Bangalore"
<wikimedia-in-blr(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 2:06 PM
On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 6:21 PM, Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
explain. how social relevance of sanskrit is out of scope of wiki in sanskrit and govt
funding to it?
Basavaraj,
You must differentiate between the following:
The social relevance of Sanskrit in India (as you put it)
Impact of Wikipedia in Sanskrit to society.
The first topic, I maintain is beyond the scope of this list. It is to wide a topic.
As far as the second one goes, Wikipedia in Sanskrit is too small to discuss this now.
If you question was with regards to the process followed to start a wikipedia in a
language (like Sankrit or any other), you are referred to the following:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee
As you can see from the links above, there *are* active discussions before a wikipedia
project is created.
do you guys discuss social relavance of what you are doing at all? if yes, where? if no,
that is a grave ommission.
I urge you to consider spending some time understanding how wikipedia works and the
processes behind it before coming to conclusions on some
aspects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Contents
Wikipedia has evolved over 10 years. It did not become a phenomenon just like that. There
surely is a "method" to most things, even if it doesn't seem very apparent
to some. And these methods keep improving. You too can contribute to bettering these
while participating in the processes and experiencing them.
A lot of links and references have been shared on this thread. Hope it helps you form your
views on the processes behind wikipedia. And as they say, "Rome was not built in one
day"! In this case it took 10 years (and it is still a WIP).
Thanks
Arun
--- On Sat, 2/26/11, Arun Ramarathnam <arunram25(a)gmail.com> wrote:
From: Arun Ramarathnam <arunram25(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-in-blr] [Wikimediaindia-l] ToI front page: Rs 1 cr for Sanskrit
WP
To: "Mailing list for Wikimedians / Wikipedians in & from Bangalore, India"
<wikimedia-in-blr(a)lists.wikimedia.org>rg>, "Basavaraj Itnal"
<basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 12:47 PM
Basavaraj,
The social relevance of Sanskrit in India, is not a topic that is in the scope if this
list.
It is a much larger topic.
As far as your observations on factual inaccuracies of some articles, that is certainly
something you can take up on the talk page of the respective wiki page. There may be more
knowledgeable contributors on the subject who can comment on it.
Could you also please refer the following links or pages that may assist you further:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Accuracy_dispute
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Fact_and_Reference_Check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us/Article_problem/Factual_e…
Thank you
Arun
On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 5:34 PM, Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
this is about social relevance of sanskrit to India. and some concomitant errenous
insertions.
Basavaraj N Itnal
--- On Sat, 2/26/11, Prateek Ramachandra <prateek.vr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
From: Prateek Ramachandra <prateek.vr(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-in-blr] [Wikimediaindia-l] ToI front page: Rs 1 cr for Sanskrit
WP
To: "Mailing list for Wikimedians / Wikipedians in & from Bangalore, India"
<wikimedia-in-blr(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Cc: "Basavaraj Itnal" <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 12:00 PM
Guys... what are we discussing here??? Please stop discussing about non-relevant topics...
focus on sanskrit wiki... please start another discussion if anyone has anything else to
say...
I
On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Basavaraj Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
correct version of lingayatism as opposed to brahmanicised version on wiki..
http://www.everyculture.com/South-Asia/Lingayat-Religion-and-Expressive-Cul…
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hubli/Lingayat-is-an-independent-re…
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/134566/veerashaivas-urged-register-ling…
Basavaraj N Itnal
--- On Sat, 2/26/11, Gautam John <gautam(a)prathambooks.org> wrote:
From: Gautam John <gautam(a)prathambooks.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-in-blr] [Wikimediaindia-l] ToI front page: Rs 1 cr for Sanskrit
WP
To: "Mailing list for Wikimedians / Wikipedians in & from Bangalore, India"
<wikimedia-in-blr(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:30 AM
On 26 February 2011 16:57, Basavaraj
Itnal <basavarajitnal(a)yahoo.com>
wrote:
wiki has to recognise and be sensitive to these
concerns.
It is, in it's content drawing on it's policies of being
an
encyclopedia and being neutral. These are very powerful
pillars that
promote neutrality of points of view.
Thank you.
Best,
Gautam
________
http://social.prathambooks.org/
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