Hi,
In the previous mailman version you could write a name to an email address so that it was easy to find which user was connected to which email. In this new version I haven't found this feature yet. Does it exist? And if not: is there a possibility to add it?
Trijnstel
I'm not sure if that feature was supposed to be used that way. From what I understand, this was mostly exposing people's real identity to other list members. In my humble opinion, this should in our setup in 99% be the choice of the individual and not of the list admin. That is, if it is even legal to collect that kind of data unless you have prior permission.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:12 PM Trijnstel wp Trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi,
In the previous mailman version you could write a name to an email address so that it was easy to find which user was connected to which email. In this new version I haven't found this feature yet. Does it exist? And if not: is there a possibility to add it?
Trijnstel _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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Well, I meant the username, of course, not the real name. Right now you can only find which email is connected to which username if you had email contact with the user him/herself. I used it so that the other list admins (if appointed later) could also find out which email had to be removed if someone quit from a function. For example: if a checkuser quits, then with the list we could easily find which email we had to remove. That is a lot harder now.
Trijnstel ________________________________ Van: effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com Verzonden: maandag 14 juni 2021 08:24 Aan: List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org Onderwerp: [List admins] Re: Name connected to an email?
I'm not sure if that feature was supposed to be used that way. From what I understand, this was mostly exposing people's real identity to other list members. In my humble opinion, this should in our setup in 99% be the choice of the individual and not of the list admin. That is, if it is even legal to collect that kind of data unless you have prior permission.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:12 PM Trijnstel wp <Trijnstel@hotmail.commailto:Trijnstel@hotmail.com> wrote: Hi,
In the previous mailman version you could write a name to an email address so that it was easy to find which user was connected to which email. In this new version I haven't found this feature yet. Does it exist? And if not: is there a possibility to add it?
Trijnstel _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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Yes, whether it is a username or a real name, that would be private data which is up to the individual to disclose or not. I can see a use case for it, but if this information is available to other subscribers, which seems to be the case on most lists, I'm not sure if the use would be desirable.
With the new setup, such information would no longer be list specific, as the account is wikimedia-wide.
What you seem to be looking for is a freeform field for the user-list combination that is only accessible to admins (presumably on the 'member options' page). This could contain a username (assuming you got permission for that during the registration process), but also other information such as expiry date or something, or whether someone has been warned for misbehavior. I could see the upside for such a generic field, but I'm not sure whether it is easy to implement.
I note that there is already a 'username' field in the user settings that the user can choose to enter, but I'm not sure where this is exposed, if anywhere.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:37 PM Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
Well, I meant the username, of course, not the real name. Right now you can only find which email is connected to which username if you had email contact with the user him/herself. I used it so that the other list admins (if appointed later) could also find out which email had to be removed if someone quit from a function. For example: if a checkuser quits, then with the list we could easily find which email we had to remove. That is a lot harder now.
Trijnstel
*Van:* effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com *Verzonden:* maandag 14 juni 2021 08:24 *Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org *Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Name connected to an email?
I'm not sure if that feature was supposed to be used that way. From what I understand, this was mostly exposing people's real identity to other list members. In my humble opinion, this should in our setup in 99% be the choice of the individual and not of the list admin. That is, if it is even legal to collect that kind of data unless you have prior permission.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:12 PM Trijnstel wp Trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi,
In the previous mailman version you could write a name to an email address so that it was easy to find which user was connected to which email. In this new version I haven't found this feature yet. Does it exist? And if not: is there a possibility to add it?
Trijnstel _______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to listadmins-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Il 14/06/21 09:52, effe iets anders ha scritto:
I note that there is already a 'username' field in the user settings that the user can choose to enter, but I'm not sure where this is exposed, if anywhere.
That's the username for logging into "mailman" (both hyperkitty and Postorious, AFAICT). It's not supposed to have any other purpose, I think. (I didn't check docs nor code.)
Federico
Maybe try your own contact list instead? :) On 14-Jun-21 8:12:35 AM, Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote: Hi,
In the previous mailman version you could write a name to an email address so that it was easy to find which user was connected to which email. In this new version I haven't found this feature yet. Does it exist? And if not: is there a possibility to add it?
Trijnstel
This is a problem for lists where membership is dependent on onwiki permissions, especially those that deal with non-public information - that is, checkuser, oversight, functionary and arbcom-type lists. All of the lists of which I am an administrator are included in this. Not being able to link the email address to the onwiki username of the person is genuinely an issue for us, because we're responsible for ensuring that only those who qualify for membership are included.
We need to find a way to be able to do that. It is a big deal, because of the nature of these lists. When I look at the users of those private lists, some of them have a "name" in quotation marks before the email address, which is pretty much what we want to continue doing. I just don't see how we can do that. (And I've checked, the names in quotations are NOT the same from list to list.)
Incidentally, if you want to update any data for your personal pistorius account, you are REQUIRED to add a first and last name. (Hello everyone, I'm Risker Risker!) The entire "user privacy" theory doesn't make sense - it's the email address that's private, not the username, and it's not private from the list moderators.
Risker/Anne
On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 at 10:01, Mohamed ElGohary ircpresident@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe try your own contact list instead? :)
On 14-Jun-21 8:12:35 AM, Trijnstel wp trijnstel@hotmail.com wrote: Hi,
In the previous mailman version you could write a name to an email address so that it was easy to find which user was connected to which email. In this new version I haven't found this feature yet. Does it exist? And if not: is there a possibility to add it?
Trijnstel
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First, I don't think the way it was used was "secure". I think it could be changed by the user himself.
Second, the field probably still existsin the database, but a way to change it is not exposed. The names in quotations Risker mentions are probably that field, migrated from mailman2.
Third, for such private I think we should aim for having: a) A mapping of the private list and the membership condition (e.g. user needs to belong to either group A on wiki x or group B in wiki Y). This could live in puppet, a lists repo, etc. b) A daily cron which automatically unsubscribes from each private list the mailman3 users in the list which don't have the wiki email linked to a user with the applicabe permission.
This way, even if moderators lost track of someone no longer being a X (or made a mistake sigining up the wrong user), it would be automatically corrected at most after 24 hours. Note the user wouldn't need to use the same email address on-wiki and on mailman. Jusr to have mailman know that the wiki mall belongs to the same mailan account.
Bonus would be not to let a user join the list without the needed requirement, but that seems more complex.
Best regards
In all fairness, this is not a problem with mailman3. I had the exact same issue with Perisan Wikipedia's internal admin mailing list where I'm an owner. You can set a name there but most people prefer their name instead of their username and I couldn't find out which user is which. In some cases, I even sent an email internally asking "Does anyone know who is foo@bar.com?".
Back to trying to fix the problem. This will be partially handled with https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T249678 which when done, you can draw the connection between user and email addresses. Even if that doesn't get done, handling such cases (specially the ones dealing with NDA) is much easier in mm3. Now we have the list of members in a database table and I can query that!, then I can easily match that query with email addresses of checkusers and other functionaries across all wikis in production tables. This can be written in a weekend but I need approval from legal/T&S for this as this effectively moves private data around in production and possibly I need to disclose the results to owners of that mailing list. Please create a ticket and let's continue discussing there.
Best
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 1:40 AM Platonides platonides@gmail.com wrote:
First, I don't think the way it was used was "secure". I think it could be changed by the user himself.
Second, the field probably still existsin the database, but a way to change it is not exposed. The names in quotations Risker mentions are probably that field, migrated from mailman2.
Third, for such private I think we should aim for having: a) A mapping of the private list and the membership condition (e.g. user needs to belong to either group A on wiki x or group B in wiki Y). This could live in puppet, a lists repo, etc. b) A daily cron which automatically unsubscribes from each private list the mailman3 users in the list which don't have the wiki email linked to a user with the applicabe permission.
This way, even if moderators lost track of someone no longer being a X (or made a mistake sigining up the wrong user), it would be automatically corrected at most after 24 hours. Note the user wouldn't need to use the same email address on-wiki and on mailman. Jusr to have mailman know that the wiki mall belongs to the same mailan account.
Bonus would be not to let a user join the list without the needed requirement, but that seems more complex.
Best regards
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