On 11 February 2013 17:00, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote: That statement is trivially false, in general application as well. - d.

I would oppose any support from Wikimedia UK for targeted use of the Wikipedia main page to increase the visibility of projects like Gibraltarpedia. Beyond that, I believe it would also be extremely unwise for WMUK to offer such support. Andreas On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 5:41 PM, HJ Mitchell <hjmitchell(a)ymail.com> wrote:

On 12 February 2013 12:42, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote: It is important to remember that Andreas is opposed to Wikipedia in general and to chapters doing anything. ("Assume good faith" does not mean "in the face of mountains of evidence and the subject's own words.") - d.

Thomas, I don't think there is much wrong with projects like Monmouthpedia and Gibraltarpedia at all. When I first heard about Monmouthpedia, I thought it was a great project. Problems arose from – 1. the conflation of roles within the chapter, 2. the projects' being plainly described as tourism marketing initiatives in the press, and 3. the use of the Wikipedia main page to increase project and customer visibility. I see a PR, credibility and integrity problem for the Wikimedia movement if such projects are prominently sold by Wikimedia as marketing projects designed to increase tourism – because this means we are saying it is fine to leverage Wikipedia to boost local business. Similarly, I don't think it is wise to leverage the main page to enhance such projects' visibility, or for Wikimedia UK to endorse any such use of the main page. Commercial interests should be kept at arm's length from WMF and the chapter, and from the Wikipedia identity. I don't want to see the Wikipedia main page play host to all manner of hidden commercial interests, especially when the commercial background is not transparent to the average reader. In relation to the lack of transparency, there is also a potential legal problem here under EU legislation, as described in the Signpost a while back: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-11-12/News_a… In my view, Wikimedia should support such projects as outreach efforts, to get people involved in writing content, but not as marketing ploys. In terms of content generation, and getting people involved in Wikipedia, these are good projects, and to that degree I support them. Best, Andreas On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

On Tuesday, 12 February 2013 at 15:56, rexx wrote: Let's be fair here, it's not just Andreas' concerns. It's not just a concern for self-styled Wikipedia critics. Lots and lots of people thought that Gibraltarpedia was problematic, myself included.* I think it's a clear case of WMUK collectively not having a good intuitive grasp of what the community on-wiki will and won't tolerate from chapters or chapter board members. It's not even about the rights and wrongs of what went on, it's about being able to make sane judgement calls about about whether one can get the community to buy-in to grand plans for outreach (whether clearly good things like working with GLAMs to more problematic things which skirt close to the edge of paid editing like the Gibraltar stuff). It's about realising that one has to think through the politics of these things and to have the cleanest possible hands in dealing with COI. Despite negative press coverage, negative reaction on-wiki and a governance review, based on Rexx's email, I'm starting to think that nobody at WMUK has actually learned anything useful from the Gibraltarpedia affair. Which is a shame. * See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:G… -- Tom Morris <http://tommorris.org/>

On Tuesday, 12 February 2013 at 17:06, rexx wrote: Serving on committees goes against my religious beliefs, but thanks for the statement of confidence. ;-) -- Tom Morris <http://tommorris.org/>

There's very little I can say that would add to Doug's articulate and well-thought-out post, but I welcome Andreas' more substantive post as a step towards a rational, mature discussion about these projects. I think such a discussion has been needed for a while, but hasn't been possible until now because of the entanglement with wider issues about conflicts of interest etc. Andreas raises some points that are worth addressing. The conflation of roles within the chapter is not something I'm in a position to opine on, but "the projects' being plainly described as tourism marketing initiatives in the press" is a legitimate concern. Wikipedia must be neutral, and of course that neutrality extends beyond the text of a given article. Nevertheless, the increased visibility of, say, Monmouth is an effect of these projects and one reason that local governments may wish to see such projects in their areas. There's no getting away from that - local governments aren't motivated by altruism in the same way that Wikipedians are. As for the controversy at DYK, mistakes were made there. I think it was the result of naivety and the lack of clear process for this sort of thing at DYK and certainly not of any malice. Roger was just trying to see that people writing articles got some recognition, as he had done for years before Monmouth- or Gibraltarpedia were conceived. I think Roger's naivety wrt conflicts of interest and volumes of nominations at DYK, and DYK's processes, have both been rectified or are being rectified. All that said, we need to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, Gibraltarpedia has its issues. No, those issues are not going to go away with the wave of a magic wand. But I've been to Gibraltar, and the number of people involved, and the enthusiasm with which the project is met by residents, cultural institutions, schools, and at least three different government departments tells me that something is being built that will outlive the politics surrounding the project, and it has real potential to make a positive change to the movement without compromising our movement's principles. None of that is to say that Gibraltarpedia can carry on as though the events of the last few months never happened (see my first paragraph), but nor is it fatally flawed. It's also worth pointing out that almost everybody involved is involved as a volunteer and is contributing to the project and to Wikipedia out of altruism.  Thanks,   Harry Mitchell http://enwp.org/User:HJ Phone: 024 7698 0977 Skype: harry_j_mitchell ________________________________ From: rexx &lt;rexx(a)blueyonder.co.uk&gt; To: UK Wikimedia mailing list &lt;wikimediauk-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2013, 15:56 Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] QRpedia My usual optimism can sometimes lead to disappointment, but I think I'd rather have it that way. Projects like Monmouthpedia and Gibraltarpedia have a huge potential for doing good work, and they need the community to support and engage with them to make sure they deliver that good work. I am pleased to read Andreas' précis of the extent to which he would support projects, but it's worth fleshing out the positive side of engaging in such projects, either as volunteers or as a body: 1. There is an opportunity to create many new encyclopedic articles, not only in English but also in myriad other languages. 2. There is an opportunity to take and publish photographs of notable objects and people. 3. There is an opportunity to enthuse existing editors and recruit new editors, training them as we go along. 4. There is an opportunity to create networks to support more projects between interested groups who share our aims.For example, Monmouthpedia generated many new articles in multiple languages as well as new photographs; the volunteers' efforts have helped vitalise the Welsh Wikipedia; the contacts made are leading to a shift in attitude of the Welsh Government and academia towards free and open licensing of work that they create or are custodians of. Gibraltarpedia has the potential to involve the whole area from Gibraltar into North Africa and create links between British, Spanish and North African wikimedians - perhaps even help to establish new communities of wikimedians where they do not yet exist. Andreas' concerns are clearly genuinely held, and we should never fear honest scrutiny and criticism. I'm looking forward to seeing new initiatives in the future and I'd welcome everyone's input on how best to ensure that they meet the vision of our wiki-movement. Contributions from our sternest critics are potentially the most valuable. -- Rexx On 12 February 2013 13:41, Andreas Kolbe &lt;jayen466(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Thomas, _______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l(a)wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

On 11 Feb 2013, at 20:02, Thomas Dalton &lt;thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: The need to have developer resources available to set up QRpedia on WMUK servers, and to maintain and improve it, has been thought about for a while now and was incorporated into this year's developer budget (although the activity plan doesn't explicitly state this). Thanks, Mike

*We've been very lucky in finding two developers who know how to keep their eye on the community pulse and are willing to "go the extra mile" for us when we need them.* I'll second that! As its likely we're changing the date of its meeting, anyone interesting in knowing more/getting involved in discussions about the planned development work could do worse than come to the next Tech committee meeting - http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Technology_Committee :) On 11 February 2013 20:40, rexx &lt;rexx(a)blueyonder.co.uk&gt; wrote: -- *Katherine Bavage * *Fundraising Manager * *Wikimedia UK* +44 20 7065 0949 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*