Dear All,
As one of the few female members of Wikimedia NYC I want to express to you all my thoughts on the gender dynamics of the group to put things in perspective. I hope that this email can continue into a wider discussion about the gender politics of Wikipedia and how to address potential issues of sexism in our community.
First off, I have been incredibly thankful for the opportunity to work with all of you and have learned a lot from my participation in this group and the gracious help of many of you.
That said, I have felt that the attitudes of some community members has been quite antagonistic towards myself and that this had made me feel unwelcome. Part of my criticism is that I have felt judged at different points for not having the same technical strengths and/or community connections in the group. I think it is important for older members of Wikimedia NYC to remind themselves that not everyone has the same set of skills/references to draw from and in order to create a friendly and open environment for new members we have to be patient teachers to newcomers, not judgmental exclusivists or lecturers. I also bring this up because I have had several other women that have been in some way involved or have worked with Wikimedia NYC members at events express discomfort at the masculine and/or sexist undertones of some of the training styles of members of Wikimedia NYC this was even true at the ArtAndFeminism event- which I found very concerning. This greatly concerns me as the group already is mostly male members, and the perception of this kind of negative attitude could only prevent the diversification of our group and its addressal of the concerns with the gender gap more widely in the Wikipedia community.
I think one of the problems is that attendees of events don't want to be told how things are and lectured to as much as they want to be given enough encouragement to go out and learn the policies/editing on their own. The difference might seem subtle but I think it is noticeable. I ask each member of this group to please consider if perhaps you may be implicated in my concerns here, because this email is not coming out of nowhere but out of the discomfort and conversation among other members of the group to which I will leave unnamed.
I also want to stress that Wikimedia NYC should not be a place for unwanted, unprofessional romantic attention. This kind of attention makes it hard to feel like a real person when one's intellectual interests are being interrupted by an objectifying gaze. I ask that the group treat our events and meetings like a workplace in the sense that harassment of a sexual or romantic nature should not be tolerated.
Thanks for listening. I hope this conversation evolves perhaps into a training on how to faster a friendly space environment in groups and/or a larger discussion of the potential gender gaps within the group. I really think it should be a conversation- I just felt I needed to express these frustrations upfront instead of continuing to leave them unaddressed.
Thanks for reading,
Dorothy
Dorothy says: "I also want to stress that Wikimedia NYC should not be a place for unwanted, unprofessional romantic attention. This kind of attention makes it hard to feel like a real person when one's intellectual interests are being interrupted by an objectifying gaze. I ask that the group treat our events and meetings like a workplace in the sense that harassment of a sexual or romantic nature should not be tolerated. "
I just want to add support to this. *This is largely why I stopped attending WMNYC events a year or so ago*; after I spent a few events having my body stared at, I simply couldn't dredge up enough interest in future events to outweigh the intensely creepy experience I'd had.
As far as teaching attitudes that have been offputting, Dorothy, could you possibly go into more detail about that? Since I haven't been at recent events, it's hard for me to picture what type of situations you've been experiencing these problems in. I don't mean that in an "account for what you say!" sense, but just a "huh, I'm curious about what's been experienced and how it can be changed" sense (if you'd rather have that type of conversation off-list, please feel free to email me directly at this address).
My personal feeling - and again, since I've avoided events for a while now, this may be outdated - is that WMNYC events focus(ed) too heavily on cross-pollinating with FOSS groups rather than on bringing in active wikimedians, and as a result most WMNYC events have/had a largely male, largely technical, largely non-wikimedian attendee list. These people are of course welcome at our events, but what used to be a friendly, social, not-especially-technical meetup group has become very much a male-techie-experience group.
-Fluffernutter
On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Dorothy Howard dhoward@metro.org wrote:
Dear All,
As one of the few female members of Wikimedia NYC I want to express to you all my thoughts on the gender dynamics of the group to put things in perspective. I hope that this email can continue into a wider discussion about the gender politics of Wikipedia and how to address potential issues of sexism in our community.
First off, I have been incredibly thankful for the opportunity to work with all of you and have learned a lot from my participation in this group and the gracious help of many of you.
That said, I have felt that the attitudes of some community members has been quite antagonistic towards myself and that this had made me feel unwelcome. Part of my criticism is that I have felt judged at different points for not having the same technical strengths and/or community connections in the group. I think it is important for older members of Wikimedia NYC to remind themselves that not everyone has the same set of skills/references to draw from and in order to create a friendly and open environment for new members we have to be patient teachers to newcomers, not judgmental exclusivists or lecturers. I also bring this up because I have had several other women that have been in some way involved or have worked with Wikimedia NYC members at events express discomfort at the masculine and/or sexist undertones of some of the training styles of members of Wikimedia NYC this was even true at the ArtAndFeminism event- which I found very concerning. This greatly concerns me as the group already is mostly male members, and the perception of this kind of negative attitude could only prevent the diversification of our group and its addressal of the concerns with the gender gap more widely in the Wikipedia community.
I think one of the problems is that attendees of events don't want to be told how things are and lectured to as much as they want to be given enough encouragement to go out and learn the policies/editing on their own. The difference might seem subtle but I think it is noticeable. I ask each member of this group to please consider if perhaps you may be implicated in my concerns here, because this email is not coming out of nowhere but out of the discomfort and conversation among other members of the group to which I will leave unnamed.
I also want to stress that Wikimedia NYC should not be a place for unwanted, unprofessional romantic attention. This kind of attention makes it hard to feel like a real person when one's intellectual interests are being interrupted by an objectifying gaze. I ask that the group treat our events and meetings like a workplace in the sense that harassment of a sexual or romantic nature should not be tolerated.
Thanks for listening. I hope this conversation evolves perhaps into a training on how to faster a friendly space environment in groups and/or a larger discussion of the potential gender gaps within the group. I really think it should be a conversation- I just felt I needed to express these frustrations upfront instead of continuing to leave them unaddressed.
Thanks for reading,
Dorothy
-- Dorothy Howard, Open Data Fellow Metropolitan New York Library Council (METRO) 212.228.2320 x127 http://metro.org/
Wikimedia-US-NYC-Discuss mailing list Wikimedia-US-NYC-Discuss@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-us-nyc-discuss
Hi Dorothy,
Thank you for your thoughtful and honest email. You raise very important matters that the group should begin discussing openly. I have had similar experiences with Wikimedia NYC and other tech/activist groups, and sometimes felt a little discouraged or shy about speaking up, and a lot of times, I rationalize and brush off what I experience as something I would always experience in groups that are predominantly male.
I'm happy to coordinate our efforts on conference planning to begin a conversation about this. If you need any assistance in organizing a diversity training for our group or would like to set aside time to have a Wikimedia NYC Board meeting for this, please let me know. I will do anything and everything to help start this conversation.
Thanks again, Jennifer
Jennifer Baek baek01@gmail.com (646)756-9783
On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Dorothy Howard dhoward@metro.org wrote:
Dear All,
As one of the few female members of Wikimedia NYC I want to express to you all my thoughts on the gender dynamics of the group to put things in perspective. I hope that this email can continue into a wider discussion about the gender politics of Wikipedia and how to address potential issues of sexism in our community.
First off, I have been incredibly thankful for the opportunity to work with all of you and have learned a lot from my participation in this group and the gracious help of many of you.
That said, I have felt that the attitudes of some community members has been quite antagonistic towards myself and that this had made me feel unwelcome. Part of my criticism is that I have felt judged at different points for not having the same technical strengths and/or community connections in the group. I think it is important for older members of Wikimedia NYC to remind themselves that not everyone has the same set of skills/references to draw from and in order to create a friendly and open environment for new members we have to be patient teachers to newcomers, not judgmental exclusivists or lecturers. I also bring this up because I have had several other women that have been in some way involved or have worked with Wikimedia NYC members at events express discomfort at the masculine and/or sexist undertones of some of the training styles of members of Wikimedia NYC this was even true at the ArtAndFeminism event- which I found very concerning. This greatly concerns me as the group already is mostly male members, and the perception of this kind of negative attitude could only prevent the diversification of our group and its addressal of the concerns with the gender gap more widely in the Wikipedia community.
I think one of the problems is that attendees of events don't want to be told how things are and lectured to as much as they want to be given enough encouragement to go out and learn the policies/editing on their own. The difference might seem subtle but I think it is noticeable. I ask each member of this group to please consider if perhaps you may be implicated in my concerns here, because this email is not coming out of nowhere but out of the discomfort and conversation among other members of the group to which I will leave unnamed.
I also want to stress that Wikimedia NYC should not be a place for unwanted, unprofessional romantic attention. This kind of attention makes it hard to feel like a real person when one's intellectual interests are being interrupted by an objectifying gaze. I ask that the group treat our events and meetings like a workplace in the sense that harassment of a sexual or romantic nature should not be tolerated.
Thanks for listening. I hope this conversation evolves perhaps into a training on how to faster a friendly space environment in groups and/or a larger discussion of the potential gender gaps within the group. I really think it should be a conversation- I just felt I needed to express these frustrations upfront instead of continuing to leave them unaddressed.
Thanks for reading,
Dorothy
-- Dorothy Howard, Open Data Fellow Metropolitan New York Library Council (METRO) 212.228.2320 x127 http://metro.org/
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Wikimedia NYC Board" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wikimedia-nyc-board+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to wikimedia-nyc-board@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/wikimedia-nyc-board. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
So are any of the ladies in the group going to TODAY'S NYC Seven Sister's event that's designed to address these issues?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/SevenSisters/March2014SevenSi...
Sent from my Droid 4 Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי elipongo@gmail.com "יְהִי אוֹר" On Mar 4, 2014 1:44 PM, "Jennifer Baek" baek01@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Dorothy,
Thank you for your thoughtful and honest email. You raise very important matters that the group should begin discussing openly. I have had similar experiences with Wikimedia NYC and other tech/activist groups, and sometimes felt a little discouraged or shy about speaking up, and a lot of times, I rationalize and brush off what I experience as something I would always experience in groups that are predominantly male.
I'm happy to coordinate our efforts on conference planning to begin a conversation about this. If you need any assistance in organizing a diversity training for our group or would like to set aside time to have a Wikimedia NYC Board meeting for this, please let me know. I will do anything and everything to help start this conversation.
Thanks again, Jennifer
Jennifer Baek baek01@gmail.com (646)756-9783
On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Dorothy Howard dhoward@metro.org wrote:
Dear All,
As one of the few female members of Wikimedia NYC I want to express to you all my thoughts on the gender dynamics of the group to put things in perspective. I hope that this email can continue into a wider discussion about the gender politics of Wikipedia and how to address potential issues of sexism in our community.
First off, I have been incredibly thankful for the opportunity to work with all of you and have learned a lot from my participation in this group and the gracious help of many of you.
That said, I have felt that the attitudes of some community members has been quite antagonistic towards myself and that this had made me feel unwelcome. Part of my criticism is that I have felt judged at different points for not having the same technical strengths and/or community connections in the group. I think it is important for older members of Wikimedia NYC to remind themselves that not everyone has the same set of skills/references to draw from and in order to create a friendly and open environment for new members we have to be patient teachers to newcomers, not judgmental exclusivists or lecturers. I also bring this up because I have had several other women that have been in some way involved or have worked with Wikimedia NYC members at events express discomfort at the masculine and/or sexist undertones of some of the training styles of members of Wikimedia NYC this was even true at the ArtAndFeminism event- which I found very concerning. This greatly concerns me as the group already is mostly male members, and the perception of this kind of negative attitude could only prevent the diversification of our group and its addressal of the concerns with the gender gap more widely in the Wikipedia community.
I think one of the problems is that attendees of events don't want to be told how things are and lectured to as much as they want to be given enough encouragement to go out and learn the policies/editing on their own. The difference might seem subtle but I think it is noticeable. I ask each member of this group to please consider if perhaps you may be implicated in my concerns here, because this email is not coming out of nowhere but out of the discomfort and conversation among other members of the group to which I will leave unnamed.
I also want to stress that Wikimedia NYC should not be a place for unwanted, unprofessional romantic attention. This kind of attention makes it hard to feel like a real person when one's intellectual interests are being interrupted by an objectifying gaze. I ask that the group treat our events and meetings like a workplace in the sense that harassment of a sexual or romantic nature should not be tolerated.
Thanks for listening. I hope this conversation evolves perhaps into a training on how to faster a friendly space environment in groups and/or a larger discussion of the potential gender gaps within the group. I really think it should be a conversation- I just felt I needed to express these frustrations upfront instead of continuing to leave them unaddressed.
Thanks for reading,
Dorothy
-- Dorothy Howard, Open Data Fellow Metropolitan New York Library Council (METRO) 212.228.2320 x127 http://metro.org/
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Wikimedia NYC Board" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wikimedia-nyc-board+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to wikimedia-nyc-board@googlegroups.com . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/wikimedia-nyc-board. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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Holding events at women's colleges to bring in more female editors is a good thing, Elias, but I think you might be misunderstanding what people have said here if you think that just changing the location will change women being feeling uncomfortable at WMNYC events. The particular issues this thread is discussing seem to be with attitudes of meetup attendees, not with where we happen to be sitting at the time.
(Also, Tuesday-afternoon bring-your-own-computer events at Manhattan colleges are perhaps not so suited to those of us who left college more than a decade ago, work day jobs outside the city, don't write about women's history, and perhaps whose laptops have been broken for a few months anyway, and and and. I miss the good old days of a bunch of people getting dinner and geeking out over wikipolicy on a weekend night.)
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 1:57 PM, Elias Friedman elipongo@gmail.com wrote:
So are any of the ladies in the group going to TODAY'S NYC Seven Sister's event that's designed to address these issues?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/SevenSisters/March2014SevenSi...
Sent from my Droid 4 Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי elipongo@gmail.com "יְהִי אוֹר" On Mar 4, 2014 1:44 PM, "Jennifer Baek" baek01@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Dorothy,
Thank you for your thoughtful and honest email. You raise very important matters that the group should begin discussing openly. I have had similar experiences with Wikimedia NYC and other tech/activist groups, and sometimes felt a little discouraged or shy about speaking up, and a lot of times, I rationalize and brush off what I experience as something I would always experience in groups that are predominantly male.
I'm happy to coordinate our efforts on conference planning to begin a conversation about this. If you need any assistance in organizing a diversity training for our group or would like to set aside time to have a Wikimedia NYC Board meeting for this, please let me know. I will do anything and everything to help start this conversation.
Thanks again, Jennifer
Jennifer Baek baek01@gmail.com (646)756-9783
On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Dorothy Howard dhoward@metro.org wrote:
Dear All,
As one of the few female members of Wikimedia NYC I want to express to you all my thoughts on the gender dynamics of the group to put things in perspective. I hope that this email can continue into a wider discussion about the gender politics of Wikipedia and how to address potential issues of sexism in our community.
First off, I have been incredibly thankful for the opportunity to work with all of you and have learned a lot from my participation in this group and the gracious help of many of you.
That said, I have felt that the attitudes of some community members has been quite antagonistic towards myself and that this had made me feel unwelcome. Part of my criticism is that I have felt judged at different points for not having the same technical strengths and/or community connections in the group. I think it is important for older members of Wikimedia NYC to remind themselves that not everyone has the same set of skills/references to draw from and in order to create a friendly and open environment for new members we have to be patient teachers to newcomers, not judgmental exclusivists or lecturers. I also bring this up because I have had several other women that have been in some way involved or have worked with Wikimedia NYC members at events express discomfort at the masculine and/or sexist undertones of some of the training styles of members of Wikimedia NYC this was even true at the ArtAndFeminism event- which I found very concerning. This greatly concerns me as the group already is mostly male members, and the perception of this kind of negative attitude could only prevent the diversification of our group and its addressal of the concerns with the gender gap more widely in the Wikipedia community.
I think one of the problems is that attendees of events don't want to be told how things are and lectured to as much as they want to be given enough encouragement to go out and learn the policies/editing on their own. The difference might seem subtle but I think it is noticeable. I ask each member of this group to please consider if perhaps you may be implicated in my concerns here, because this email is not coming out of nowhere but out of the discomfort and conversation among other members of the group to which I will leave unnamed.
I also want to stress that Wikimedia NYC should not be a place for unwanted, unprofessional romantic attention. This kind of attention makes it hard to feel like a real person when one's intellectual interests are being interrupted by an objectifying gaze. I ask that the group treat our events and meetings like a workplace in the sense that harassment of a sexual or romantic nature should not be tolerated.
Thanks for listening. I hope this conversation evolves perhaps into a training on how to faster a friendly space environment in groups and/or a larger discussion of the potential gender gaps within the group. I really think it should be a conversation- I just felt I needed to express these frustrations upfront instead of continuing to leave them unaddressed.
Thanks for reading,
Dorothy
-- Dorothy Howard, Open Data Fellow Metropolitan New York Library Council (METRO) 212.228.2320 x127 http://metro.org/
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Wikimedia NYC Board" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to wikimedia-nyc-board+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to wikimedia-nyc-board@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/wikimedia-nyc-board. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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