Hello guys,
I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
There are 4 main factors why I decided to not continue my work until the end of the Toolserver in December 2014.
Reason 1 is that the Toolserver now has a second paid root and 6 months will be enough to teach amette and nosy what I know about the Toolserver.
Reason 2 is that there was no real investment in the Toolserver in the first 6 months of 2013 and I very doubt that there will ever be any in the second half or beyond.
Reason 3 is that I learned during the last weekend that the support of the Toolserver in the board of WMDE reached its minimum. One board-member announced publicly during the general meeting of WMDE that it is good that there is a timetable for the Toolserver now – I know only 1 timetable for the Toolserver and that’s Silke’s <s>plan of destruction</s> roadmap for migration [1]. Another board-member told me during a chatting in the halls that ToolLabs (or the move to) is "klasse" (~great). It is impossible to improve the Toolserver against the CEO *and* the board of WMDE.
Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors. The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year – a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year. While I asked for documentation (or at least correction) in the toolserver- wikis for years, nearly nothing ever happened. But now that ToolLabs is on the horizon you write documentation for THAT – freely. And it is really a joke to compare the empty new database-servers of ToolLabs with our old and heavy loaded servers for performance. Let’s see how fast they are if 10 slow queries, which had run for hours, run in parallel. With very few exceptions none of you helped to protect the Toolserver against ToolLabs; all you were interested in was that ToolLabs provides the same environment so your tools can continue to run there. When I read such phrases like "we have to stabilize the Toolserver until Labs is ready" or now "we need the Toolserver for redirects to ToolLabs" I could vomit!
I promised in November 2012 that I will stay for another year and I will fulfill that promise – but not a day longer. There is no point in fighting for something if the something has already surrendered and no support is there (not from you, the toolusers, the board of WMDE, the CEO of WMDE or the general meeting of WMDE).
These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever the WMF staff decides will happen. Maybe if one of these things happen you will remember the tiny, slow, unstable, but free Toolserver — but it will not be there anymore.
Sincerely, DaB.
[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en [2] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Labs-Moving-Survey
Dab,
Thank you for all your Work.
Best,
Huib
Op woensdag 29 mei 2013 schreef DaB. (WP@daniel.baur4.info) het volgende:
Hello guys,
I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
There are 4 main factors why I decided to not continue my work until the end of the Toolserver in December 2014.
Reason 1 is that the Toolserver now has a second paid root and 6 months will be enough to teach amette and nosy what I know about the Toolserver.
Reason 2 is that there was no real investment in the Toolserver in the first 6 months of 2013 and I very doubt that there will ever be any in the second half or beyond.
Reason 3 is that I learned during the last weekend that the support of the Toolserver in the board of WMDE reached its minimum. One board-member announced publicly during the general meeting of WMDE that it is good that there is a timetable for the Toolserver now – I know only 1 timetable for the Toolserver and that’s Silke’s <s>plan of destruction</s> roadmap for migration [1]. Another board-member told me during a chatting in the halls that ToolLabs (or the move to) is "klasse" (~great). It is impossible to improve the Toolserver against the CEO *and* the board of WMDE.
Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors. The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year – a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year. While I asked for documentation (or at least correction) in the toolserver- wikis for years, nearly nothing ever happened. But now that ToolLabs is on the horizon you write documentation for THAT – freely. And it is really a joke to compare the empty new database-servers of ToolLabs with our old and heavy loaded servers for performance. Let’s see how fast they are if 10 slow queries, which had run for hours, run in parallel. With very few exceptions none of you helped to protect the Toolserver against ToolLabs; all you were interested in was that ToolLabs provides the same environment so your tools can continue to run there. When I read such phrases like "we have to stabilize the Toolserver until Labs is ready" or now "we need the Toolserver for redirects to ToolLabs" I could vomit!
I promised in November 2012 that I will stay for another year and I will fulfill that promise – but not a day longer. There is no point in fighting for something if the something has already surrendered and no support is there (not from you, the toolusers, the board of WMDE, the CEO of WMDE or the general meeting of WMDE).
These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever the WMF staff decides will happen. Maybe if one of these things happen you will remember the tiny, slow, unstable, but free Toolserver — but it will not be there anymore.
Sincerely, DaB.
[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en [2] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Labs-Moving-Survey
-- Userpage: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]] — PGP: 0x2d3ee2d42b255885
Hello, so many wonderful things were created at Toolserver, so many nice cooperation’s with other users happen here and so many things I learn on Toolserver. I don't want look back in anger.
I know that all of these was only possible with your work Dab. So thank you very much.
A modification/restart of Toolserver seems for me after the years so or so necessary and perhaps we can find in the next 6 months a concept for a leaner, powerful Toolserver that gives the WMDE flexibility and independence back to develop ideas and support free projects. Hardware support is for me still a very good way of spending money if we want to support free knowledge, but it makes in my eyes no sense to fight against the majority of WMDE.
Greetings Tim alias Kolossos
Am 29.05.2013 15:09, schrieb DaB.:
Hello guys,
I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
There are 4 main factors why I decided to not continue my work until the end of the Toolserver in December 2014.
Reason 1 is that the Toolserver now has a second paid root and 6 months will be enough to teach amette and nosy what I know about the Toolserver.
Reason 2 is that there was no real investment in the Toolserver in the first 6 months of 2013 and I very doubt that there will ever be any in the second half or beyond.
Reason 3 is that I learned during the last weekend that the support of the Toolserver in the board of WMDE reached its minimum. One board-member announced publicly during the general meeting of WMDE that it is good that there is a timetable for the Toolserver now – I know only 1 timetable for the Toolserver and that’s Silke’s <s>plan of destruction</s> roadmap for migration [1]. Another board-member told me during a chatting in the halls that ToolLabs (or the move to) is "klasse" (~great). It is impossible to improve the Toolserver against the CEO *and* the board of WMDE.
Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors. The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year – a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year. While I asked for documentation (or at least correction) in the toolserver- wikis for years, nearly nothing ever happened. But now that ToolLabs is on the horizon you write documentation for THAT – freely. And it is really a joke to compare the empty new database-servers of ToolLabs with our old and heavy loaded servers for performance. Let’s see how fast they are if 10 slow queries, which had run for hours, run in parallel. With very few exceptions none of you helped to protect the Toolserver against ToolLabs; all you were interested in was that ToolLabs provides the same environment so your tools can continue to run there. When I read such phrases like "we have to stabilize the Toolserver until Labs is ready" or now "we need the Toolserver for redirects to ToolLabs" I could vomit!
I promised in November 2012 that I will stay for another year and I will fulfill that promise – but not a day longer. There is no point in fighting for something if the something has already surrendered and no support is there (not from you, the toolusers, the board of WMDE, the CEO of WMDE or the general meeting of WMDE).
These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever the WMF staff decides will happen. Maybe if one of these things happen you will remember the tiny, slow, unstable, but free Toolserver — but it will not be there anymore.
Sincerely, DaB.
[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en [2] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Labs-Moving-Survey
Toolserver-announce mailing list Toolserver-announce@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-announce
Kolossos wrote:
so many wonderful things were created at Toolserver, so many nice cooperation’s with other users happen here and so many things I learn on Toolserver. I don't want look back in anger.
Yes! :-) I think if someone proposed a Toolserver today, people would object for legal reasons and technical reasons and whatever else. But much like Wikipedia, the Toolserver somewhat inexplicably just works. Giving people a place to collaborate, to share, and to access data insanely fast is a beautiful thing.
I know that all of these was only possible with your work Dab. So thank you very much.
My thanks as well. In my opinion, even being a paid sysadmin is annoying and awful. I can't imagine being in this kind of volunteer position for years. Thank you, DaB.!
A modification/restart of Toolserver seems for me after the years so or so necessary and perhaps we can find in the next 6 months a concept for a leaner, powerful Toolserver that gives the WMDE flexibility and independence back to develop ideas and support free projects. Hardware support is for me still a very good way of spending money if we want to support free knowledge, but it makes in my eyes no sense to fight against the majority of WMDE.
Yes. I think building out infrastructure that would allow individual Wikimedia chapters (or other organizations) to set up their own Toolservers would be wonderful. With AWS and other hosting services coming down in price, it seems like it would be a great investment. The Poles have their own Toolserver (http://tools.wikimedia.pl/). And obviously the Germans have one. ;-) I've been trying to grow the idea of an American Toolserver. We'll see what happens.
All that said, Tim L. had some very good points. There are plenty of lessons to be learned from the Toolserver, I think. The _user to root ratio_ in particular needs a lot of consideration for any future iterations. It frustrates me as much as anyone else that we have hundreds of Toolserver users, of which at least a dozen would be capable and willing to donate their expertise and time to serve as a root, and yet there was basically a root lock-out for years.
And as I've previously mentioned on this list, stability is a wonderful thing. Not unreasonable expectations about uptime or anything like that, but just making a good effort to avoid breaking changes when possible (e.g., OS or Web server or job scheduling changes) and avoiding complications where possible (KISS).
There's lots to learn from German Toolserver I, but I don't regret the experience. My thanks to River, DaB., and everyone else who's helped over the years.
MZMcBride
(anonymous) wrote
I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
[...]
JFC, what a bunch of self-pitying bullshit.
Democratic toolserver? Was there a vote on the addition of new volunteer roots, or did someone just oppose it because they might not fit his personal agenda? Who made it a rule, "if someone phones my mother, they lose their account"?
No documentation on the wiki by the users? I can't find *any* mention of z-dat-s1-a and the other stuff *you* cre- ated on the wiki, and the only person who could have docu- mented it would have been *you*. The times when you brought down the Toolserver by rebooting machines whose setups had not been documented -- should users have done that?
At least Platonides and I contributed patches to JIRA to fix existing bugs. It was neither WMDE, Pavel nor the GA that stood in the way to apply those fixes.
"Fading out"? You have been gone as a system administrator for a long time. On April 30th, you said on IRC: "I have a working cluster with commons+wikipedia here :-)", while ac- tual Toolserver users had been complaining about replication lag and almost daily LDAP outages for months. You used your Toolserver privileges at least in the last year mainly for political campaigning. You neither fixed the simple issues nor planned ahead for example the Solaris to Linux migration that then had to be done in a jiffy, but actively blocked any offer of help.
Everybody has the right to leave, but don't try to put the blame on others. The Toolserver users have had a *lot* of patience with you and your quirks.
Tim
Hello, At Wednesday 29 May 2013 22:17:22 DaB. wrote:
(anonymous) wrote
I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
[...]
JFC, what a bunch of self-pitying bullshit.
Democratic toolserver? Was there a vote on the addition of new volunteer roots, or did someone just oppose it because they might not fit his personal agenda? Who made it a rule, "if someone phones my mother, they lose their account"?
I never said that the toolserver was democratic. And like every root I can make rules as I please, yes.
No documentation on the wiki by the users? I can't find *any* mention of z-dat-s1-a and the other stuff *you* cre- ated on the wiki, and the only person who could have docu- mented it would have been *you*. The times when you brought down the Toolserver by rebooting machines whose setups had not been documented -- should users have done that?
You can not find any information about z-dat-s1-a because there is no such server; there is only z-dat-s1-b. And that is a non-userland-server so I do not see why you need a documentation about it (BTW the solaris-zone-servers has not that much documentation too) – it is enough if the other roots know about it. And when I brought the toolserver down the last time because of a reboot that was not announced?
At least Platonides and I contributed patches to JIRA to fix existing bugs. It was neither WMDE, Pavel nor the GA that stood in the way to apply those fixes.
"Fading out"? You have been gone as a system administrator for a long time. On April 30th, you said on IRC: "I have a working cluster with commons+wikipedia here :-)", while ac- tual Toolserver users had been complaining about replication lag and almost daily LDAP outages for months.
I do not see the problem with the quote, because it compared the Toolserver with Labs and what I said was (and AFAIK is still) true. And yes, users complained about a high replag since months and so do I – but unfortunately I can not snip with my fingers and the problems are gone; money is needed here. The LDAP is another thing and yes it is partly my fault because I feared to touch it.
You used your Toolserver privileges at least in the last year mainly for political campaigning. You neither fixed the simple issues nor planned ahead for example the Solaris to Linux migration that then had to be done in a jiffy, but actively blocked any offer of help.
What a pity that you discovered my secret run for the CEO of the WMF! The plan to piss of some important people and keep complaining about a project neither WMDE nor WMF likes, should have work so well…. Just to calibrate you a little bit: I have no pretension for any political post – inside or outside of the Wikimedia universe. The only "job" I do that is elected is one nearly nobody else likes to do.
Everybody has the right to leave, but don't try to put the blame on others. The Toolserver users have had a *lot* of patience with you and your quirks.
And I’m thankful for the patience.
Tim
Sincerely, DaB.
Hello,
less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
[...]
JFC, what a bunch of self-pitying bullshit.
It might seem so but I dont know if anyone can imagine how frustrating this administration can be. One tries to repair something but already when you want to start something else is broken and you first go fix it. This happens since I am working on TS. I guess DaB has the same problem and if this was my spare time project I probably would have quit before.
As far as I know DaB put a lot of this time into TS.
You used your Toolserver privileges at least in the last year mainly for political campaigning. You neither fixed the simple issues nor planned ahead for example the Solaris to Linux migration that then had to be done in a jiffy, but actively blocked any offer of help.
Well finally I think it really was a good idea to force a road map for this project. Forcing this worked I think best from the community side.
Fixing all these little issues is really sometimes harder then it might look from the outside.
Everybody has the right to leave, but don't try to put the blame on others. The Toolserver users have had a *lot* of patience with you and your quirks.
And I’m thankful for the patience.
I dont think there will be any other admin that does make no mistakes here. The infrastructure of TS is quite flat and not always much redundancy so users will notice. Additionally the system has such a lot of little things working together that this just happens.
And yes, it makes sense to build something new from the start as Kolossos said.
Thank you, DaB for volunteering here so patiently.
Kind regards Marlen/nosy
Recently I needed help, and I got it from DaB - a kind and fast support. I can't say but thanks, DaB.
Alex
2013/5/29 Marlen Caemmerer marlen.caemmerer@wikimedia.de
Hello,
less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I
announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know
that
will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
[...]
JFC, what a bunch of self-pitying bullshit.
It might seem so but I dont know if anyone can imagine how frustrating this administration can be. One tries to repair something but already when you want to start something else is broken and you first go fix it. This happens since I am working on TS. I guess DaB has the same problem and if this was my spare time project I probably would have quit before.
As far as I know DaB put a lot of this time into TS.
You used your
Toolserver privileges at least in the last year mainly for political campaigning. You neither fixed the simple issues nor planned ahead for example the Solaris to Linux migration that then had to be done in a jiffy, but actively blocked any offer of help.
Well finally I think it really was a good idea to force a road map for this project. Forcing this worked I think best from the community side.
Fixing all these little issues is really sometimes harder then it might look from the outside.
Everybody has the right to leave, but don't try to put the
blame on others. The Toolserver users have had a *lot* of patience with you and your quirks.
And I’m thankful for the patience.
I dont think there will be any other admin that does make no mistakes here. The infrastructure of TS is quite flat and not always much redundancy so users will notice. Additionally the system has such a lot of little things working together that this just happens.
And yes, it makes sense to build something new from the start as Kolossos said.
Thank you, DaB for volunteering here so patiently.
Kind regards Marlen/nosy
Toolserver-l mailing list (Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org) https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l Posting guidelines for this list: https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Mailing_list_etiquette
Hello,
I just want to say: Toolserver is absolutely awesome. Take a look at freeshell communities and you will see what I mean. To be Deutsch-frendly: Ich bin dir für deine unglaubliche Arbeit dankbar.
Question: What will happen to all efforts and resources? By efforts and resources I mean: the wiki, hardware, domains, etc. What Kolossos wrote seems good, even of mine foreign point of view.
Hello, At Thursday 30 May 2013 21:52:04 DaB. wrote:
By efforts and resources I mean: the wiki, hardware, domains, etc.
the wiki (together with JIRA and maybe also the SVN) will vanish together with the toolserver. The plan for the hardware is AFAIk to donate it like WMF does it with their old stuff. I have no idea about the domain at the moment, but maybe WMF could use it to set up a redirect-server – or it will vanish too.
Sincerely, DaB.
On 29/05/13 15:09, DaB. wrote:
Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors. The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year – a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year.
I am really sorry that you feel this way. From everything saw, as a volunteer root you were exceedingly professional - more than most professional roots I know.
For some reasone the survey missed me, and I'd probably answer "not move at all". But I believe it's not that people don't care, and that most would stay on the Toolserver were that an option, but it isn't and they see there is nothing they could do.
These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever the WMF staff decides will happen.
Unfortunately, I have to agree, these are all reasonable possibilities.
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Nikola Smolenski smolensk@eunet.rswrote:
I am really sorry that you feel this way. From everything saw, as a volunteer root you were exceedingly professional - more than most professional roots I know.
I would like to second that sentiment. Regardless of the problems with funding and other support from the WMDE and WMF, I have always found the toolserver a friendly environment with helpful and friendly sysadmins.
For some reasone the survey missed me, and I'd probably answer "not move at all". But I believe it's not that people don't care, and that most would stay on the Toolserver were that an option, but it isn't and they see there is nothing they could do.
I think this is the case. As one person wrote on the survey, "I didn't want to [move to wmflabs] but, from what I gathered, it toolserver was going to die no matter what." That sums up my feelings relatively well.
- Carl
Hallo DaB.,
(German for a safer choice of words)
danke für Dein jahrelanges Engagement. Ich kann selbst höchstens ahnen, was es bedeutet, ein Projekt wie den Toolserver zu administrieren. Aber ich denke, alle Achtung, sowas ehrenamtlich zu stemmen, ist echt eine große Nummer. Danke auch für Deine Fairness, uns so früh Bescheid zu sagen bzw. Deine frühere Ankündigung jetzt so verbindlich zu wiederholen. Das schätze ich sehr, ebenso wie Deine Bereitschaft, Dein Wissen weiterzugeben, bevor Du Dich zurückziehst. Und schließlich auch danke für Deine ehrliche Mail. Ich finde Deine Entscheidung schade, Deine Gründe sind für mich aber auch nachvollziehbar.
Silke
2013/5/29 DaB. WP@daniel.baur4.info:
Hello guys,
I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
There are 4 main factors why I decided to not continue my work until the end of the Toolserver in December 2014.
Reason 1 is that the Toolserver now has a second paid root and 6 months will be enough to teach amette and nosy what I know about the Toolserver.
Reason 2 is that there was no real investment in the Toolserver in the first 6 months of 2013 and I very doubt that there will ever be any in the second half or beyond.
Reason 3 is that I learned during the last weekend that the support of the Toolserver in the board of WMDE reached its minimum. One board-member announced publicly during the general meeting of WMDE that it is good that there is a timetable for the Toolserver now – I know only 1 timetable for the Toolserver and that’s Silke’s <s>plan of destruction</s> roadmap for migration [1]. Another board-member told me during a chatting in the halls that ToolLabs (or the move to) is "klasse" (~great). It is impossible to improve the Toolserver against the CEO *and* the board of WMDE.
Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors. The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year – a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year. While I asked for documentation (or at least correction) in the toolserver- wikis for years, nearly nothing ever happened. But now that ToolLabs is on the horizon you write documentation for THAT – freely. And it is really a joke to compare the empty new database-servers of ToolLabs with our old and heavy loaded servers for performance. Let’s see how fast they are if 10 slow queries, which had run for hours, run in parallel. With very few exceptions none of you helped to protect the Toolserver against ToolLabs; all you were interested in was that ToolLabs provides the same environment so your tools can continue to run there. When I read such phrases like "we have to stabilize the Toolserver until Labs is ready" or now "we need the Toolserver for redirects to ToolLabs" I could vomit!
I promised in November 2012 that I will stay for another year and I will fulfill that promise – but not a day longer. There is no point in fighting for something if the something has already surrendered and no support is there (not from you, the toolusers, the board of WMDE, the CEO of WMDE or the general meeting of WMDE).
These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever the WMF staff decides will happen. Maybe if one of these things happen you will remember the tiny, slow, unstable, but free Toolserver — but it will not be there anymore.
Sincerely, DaB.
[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en [2] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Labs-Moving-Survey
-- Userpage: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]] — PGP: 0x2d3ee2d42b255885
Toolserver-announce mailing list Toolserver-announce@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-announce
Hello all, At Thursday 30 May 2013 21:59:00 DaB. wrote:
Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors.
after reading some mails here and in my inbox I would like to make this point a little bit more clear. For first I would like to say sorry. It was not my intension to play down the role of the tool-authors for the Toolserver. The Toolserver can not work without you. It happened several times in the past that I was surprised what tools are possible and sometimes I was also surprised that some strange tools really have many users (that’s the reason I was always very liberal of account requests). And yes some of you help other users with problems (sometimes better than I could), some of you have written how-tos in the wiki, some of you are helping the roots with problems and some of you have offer help or asked for root-rights.
The reason I added reason 4 to my mail was disappointment. In my imagination (and I guess that was naive) I thought that when ToolLabs would be ready some day, that 99% of you would just ignore that and continue your work here. I also though that when 2013 ends almost all tools would still be here and only a few tools were moved for experiment (maybe some would even moved back again). I also hoped that the survey would had a bigger participation (>50% and not 10-20%) and that the result would be "stay as long as possible" or "not move at all". With all that I would have travel to the coming general member meeting of WMDE in December to tell the members "The Toolserver has to stay because the tool-authors will not move to ToolLabs, and we need money!". The problem is that something different happened. The result of the survey is that most of you plan to move as soon as possible, some of you writing howtos about moving, and a user told us already how fast ToolLabs is (@Platonides: no, I’m not angry about that). So when I travel to the general member meeting of WMDE (isn’t there a shorter word in English?) and I’m asked "How is the Toolserver? Can you account for more money?" I have to answer "No, the tool- authors have accepted ToolLabs and more money for the toolserver would be wasting.". In German there is the phrase "Mit den Füßen abstimmen" (~to vote with the foots). It means that people show their affection not in a formal election but by using a thing (and not another), or go shopping in a store (and not in another), or visiting a place (and not another) or so on. You have done something similar. Not all of you, maybe not even the majority, but at least a visible minority. You gave me the impression that you think that the Toolserver is dead, that it is not worth the fight, that WMF has already won. You were the last group I had that supported me with the Toolserver. I had already lost the WMDE’s CEO, the general member meeting and also WMDE’s board. Loosing you made it pointless to continue the struggle.
Like I said: It was naive. I can not resent you that you like to move to a place that has a future, may be faster and maybe better administrated. I can not resent WMDE that they don’t see that loosing the Toolserver is another step to become more dependent of the WMF. But it hurts nevertheless, because it makes me think that I did something wrong.
I would like to add another point: It is a long time until the end of 2013 – I’m not gone yet. I will continue to administrate the Toolserver, and also create new accounts if wished (somebody asked about that). I will just not invest the same amount of time; and how further the year becomes the less time I will invest.
Sincerely, DaB.
On 05/30/2013 05:31 PM, DaB. wrote:
that WMF has already won
I did not wish to intervene in this thread, DaB, out of respect and admiration for your dedication; but this I cannot let by uncommented.
The WMF has not "won" anything, because there was never a contest or battle, nor was there an adversarial position to begin with. My concern - and that of the Foundation - align exactly with yours: provide a good and stable environment for community developers to do their work with the least possible fuss.
You sincerely believe that the Toolserver was and is the best solution towards that objective. I disagree, and think that the Foundation has more resources to set up and upkeep that environment and to insure its future. Either way, it's the developer community that "wins", regardless of where the actual environment ends up being.
This does not, in any way, diminish the value of what you have done, or of the effort you have expended in doing it. The Toolserver served its purpose very well for a number of years! We have simply reached a point where the continued maintenance of such a critical service living outside the infrastructure remains rational.
I am saddened that you felt that the Foundation was an enemy to protect against when we are plainly working towards the same ends. That we are in a position to support the developer community with more resources should be cause to celebrate, not bemoan. The Toolserver deserves a retirement with honors, not a bitter parting.
-- Marc
At Friday 31 May 2013 01:24:38 DaB. wrote:
On 05/30/2013 05:31 PM, DaB. wrote:
that WMF has already won
The WMF has not "won" anything, because there was never a contest or battle, nor was there an adversarial position to begin with.
sorry, but that’s untrue. The hole thing started as WMF announced to WMDE that WMF will stop to provide database-replication and database-dumps in the future. For this reason the CEO of WMDE claimed that further investments in the Toolserver would be a waste of money (he also assure the general member meeting with that). If that is not "adversarial" I have no idea what is.
My concern
- and that of the Foundation - align exactly with yours: provide a good
and stable environment for community developers to do their work with the least possible fuss.
The Toolserver is not just a place where you can put a program and run it or host a website. It’s a living community creating stuff in a anarchic way that works only in praxis but not in theory; it’s like Wikipedia. WikiLabs is more like Nupedia – in theory it is better, but in praxis it is empty and cold. The difference is that for Nupedia Jimbo accepted that it can not work and stopped it, and forced not Wikipedia user to switch to the _better_ platform. In our case it is just the way around: After the WMF noticed that nobody needed WikiLabs that started to look for a problem for their solution, and found the Toolserver.
You sincerely believe that the Toolserver was and is the best solution towards that objective. I disagree, and think that the Foundation has more resources to set up and upkeep that environment and to insure its future. Either way, it's the developer community that "wins", regardless of where the actual environment ends up being.
This does not, in any way, diminish the value of what you have done, or of the effort you have expended in doing it. The Toolserver served its purpose very well for a number of years! We have simply reached a point where the continued maintenance of such a critical service living outside the infrastructure remains rational.
That we are in a position to support the developer community with more resources
So the WMF have more money, how great…. WMDE would have enough money to support the Toolserver and there are other chapters too that offered money. It is not a matter of "resources" it is a matter of control, because the WMF controls the database-access. Make your bosses release the threat, offer ToolLabs as an alternative of the Toolserver and see what’s happening – that would be a fair fight, and we all know that competition improves a product.
-- Marc
Sincerely, DaB.
Am 31.05.2013 02:20, schrieb DaB.:
The Toolserver is not just a place where you can put a program and run it or host a website. It’s a living community creating stuff in a anarchic way that works only in praxis but not in theory; it’s like Wikipedia. WikiLabs is more like Nupedia – in theory it is better, but in praxis it is empty and cold. The difference is that for Nupedia Jimbo accepted that it can not work and stopped it, and forced not Wikipedia user to switch to the_better_ platform. In our case it is just the way around: After the WMF noticed that nobody needed WikiLabs that started to look for a problem for their solution, and found the Toolserver.
I take a look at Toollabs, also to be able as a WMDE member to defend Toolserver. What I found was the opposite of cold and empty. It cost me only 1 minute to transform my project to a multi-maintainer project with a co-maintainer. I don't need to change the URL or need to ask an admin. So anarchic cooperation is really easy. Other things are very similar to the toolserver so that the community can further riding on an other horse.
@Dab: If you see it as a fight against WMF, you had never a chance to win and I can understand your personal tragedy. But in OpenSource field you can not avoid that somebody takes your idea and copy it. But I say we can also learn from Toolslabs and should think about after some time to create a Toolserver 2.0.
Special topic OpenStreetMap: On toolserver I had the problem that some of my OSM tools "fading out" over the years because the database become incredible slow as the data volume grow by factor 5. A solution on Toolserver seems not possible, also if it would cost (with a SSD) under 1000€. So there was a level of frustrating and some people leave the project. And so I'm looking for an other solution to bring my work, my projects and the projects of others back to life and develop new stuff. I hope now that we will have on labs a fast OSM database for tools and experiment. (Rendering of popular styles should run in production environment, not in Labs.)
Greeting Tim alias Kolossos
Le Fri, 31 May 2013 02:20:22 +0200, DaB. WP@daniel.baur4.info a écrit:
At Friday 31 May 2013 01:24:38 DaB. wrote:
On 05/30/2013 05:31 PM, DaB. wrote:
that WMF has already won
The WMF has not "won" anything, because there was never a contest or battle, nor was there an adversarial position to begin with.
sorry, but that’s untrue. The hole thing started as WMF announced to WMDE that WMF will stop to provide database-replication and database-dumps in the future. For this reason the CEO of WMDE claimed that further investments in the Toolserver would be a waste of money (he also assure the general member meeting with that). If that is not "adversarial" I have no idea what is.
Sorry about my naive question, but why WMF didn’t and don’t support the Toolserver instead of recreating the same thing? Is there some long mailthreads somewhere about that?
Thanks, ~ Seb35
DaB. (2013-05-30 23:31):
Hello all, At Thursday 30 May 2013 21:59:00 DaB. wrote:
Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors.
[...]
Like I said: It was naive. I can not resent you that you like to move to a place that has a future, may be faster and maybe better administrated. I can not resent WMDE that they don’t see that loosing the Toolserver is another step to become more dependent of the WMF. But it hurts nevertheless, because it makes me think that I did something wrong.
I would add that from few months various mails in this mailing list suggested that it's already a done deal. From a tool-author perspective I would say - what's the point of struggling? I liked TS, it was working very nice, and most fixes were done quite quickly, and I always felt TS was and is very open. But let's face it - TS has not been working well lately. I understand why. I understand that TS would need some money to go on, but at the end of the day it's just annoying when things are not working. And frankly I'd like to move as fast as possible because I see no point in staying at a sinking ship. This might sound harsh, but please understand, I don't want the ship to sink, I'm not making the holes, but I - as a humble small tools author - don't feel I can do anything about that really.
What I'm saying is that it is not about voting with feet. Things were already decided. It's as if someone would place a poster on the door of a shop [Closing at the end of the year] and another one [New, bigger shop around the corner] then a vast majority of people will go to the other shop. It's as simple as that.
But, like others, I would also like to thank you for your efforts and for staying with us on that sinking ship at least for some time :-).
Cheers, Nux.
Dear DaB,
as you've mentioned yourself in your mail, it was only last weekend that you came to Berlin for WMDE's general assembly. I hope you don't mind me adding that you stayed through Sunday in order to join our bar camp / open sunday. Well, and before that you and your fellow volunteer account auditors visited the WMDE office in order to prepare for the report to the general assembly, as you have done for so many years now.
It is with all these examples of volunteer enthusiasm in mind that I have read and re-read your fade-out notice. I can't help but notice that you'll probably have carried all your concerns not only through recent months but also through last weekend. And still, on all of the above mentioned occasions you've shown the same openness, scrutiny and dedication that many people surely have come to know you for.
I'd like to thank you for those years of continuous support you've been devoting to the Toolserver. The Toolserver would not have been the success it was and still is without your dedication and your know-how.
I think you've made yourself crystal-clear about your feelings and that's all the more reason for me to say how truly regretful it is when different expectations cannot be turned into acceptable solutions for all parties involved.
Your insights will be invaluable to amette and nosy, and I am grateful for your offer to reach out to them. This feels in line with the general attitude you've been displaying to everyone working with you over the past couple of years. Hopefully, you already know how much appreciated your passion, your time and your efforts have been and will be in the future. If you don't, let me please emphasize whole-heartedly that they are most appreciated. You are.
Sincerely,
Pavel Richter Vorstand
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tel.: +49 - 30 - 219 158 260 Twitter: @pavel
2013/5/29 DaB. WP@daniel.baur4.info
Hello guys,
I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
There are 4 main factors why I decided to not continue my work until the end of the Toolserver in December 2014.
Reason 1 is that the Toolserver now has a second paid root and 6 months will be enough to teach amette and nosy what I know about the Toolserver.
Reason 2 is that there was no real investment in the Toolserver in the first 6 months of 2013 and I very doubt that there will ever be any in the second half or beyond.
Reason 3 is that I learned during the last weekend that the support of the Toolserver in the board of WMDE reached its minimum. One board-member announced publicly during the general meeting of WMDE that it is good that there is a timetable for the Toolserver now – I know only 1 timetable for the Toolserver and that’s Silke’s <s>plan of destruction</s> roadmap for migration [1]. Another board-member told me during a chatting in the halls that ToolLabs (or the move to) is "klasse" (~great). It is impossible to improve the Toolserver against the CEO *and* the board of WMDE.
Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors. The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year – a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year. While I asked for documentation (or at least correction) in the toolserver- wikis for years, nearly nothing ever happened. But now that ToolLabs is on the horizon you write documentation for THAT – freely. And it is really a joke to compare the empty new database-servers of ToolLabs with our old and heavy loaded servers for performance. Let’s see how fast they are if 10 slow queries, which had run for hours, run in parallel. With very few exceptions none of you helped to protect the Toolserver against ToolLabs; all you were interested in was that ToolLabs provides the same environment so your tools can continue to run there. When I read such phrases like "we have to stabilize the Toolserver until Labs is ready" or now "we need the Toolserver for redirects to ToolLabs" I could vomit!
I promised in November 2012 that I will stay for another year and I will fulfill that promise – but not a day longer. There is no point in fighting for something if the something has already surrendered and no support is there (not from you, the toolusers, the board of WMDE, the CEO of WMDE or the general meeting of WMDE).
These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever the WMF staff decides will happen. Maybe if one of these things happen you will remember the tiny, slow, unstable, but free Toolserver — but it will not be there anymore.
Sincerely, DaB.
[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en [2] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Labs-Moving-Survey
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