Stop collapsing sections by default

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MobileFrontend weekly report

Jon Robson

16 Sep 2013 16 Sep '13

5:34 p.m.

The more I think about it, the more I think, in its current state mobile should not collapse sections by default. If you really want to find a lower section, scrolling down the page and being able to collapse a section to see the next one is easy, yet if you just want to read the article in its entirety it is annoying to have to click to expand a section. Since we currently load all the HTML for the content of a page it seems silly to hide it (although we should certainly rethink this if we ever begin to lazy load sections) We ran event logging on toggling a while back [1] and the data showed as you got down the page, it was less likely a section would be toggled opened and read. I would propose we keep toggling enabled but change the default of all sections to be open rather than closed. This also removes the existing risk of a flash of unstyled content and enables the ability for users to do find on this page. We should at least run some kind of A/B test that rethinks this. Thoughts? [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Event_logging/Mobile#Section_toggles

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Jon Robson

16 Sep 16 Sep

5:34 p.m.

+ design-l On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Brion Vibber

5:41 p.m.

On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Jon Robson <jrobson(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

Well, to me that's a good argument for continuing to collapse (or otherwise avoid rendering) the lower sections -- they're less likely to be read at all, so why waste CPU time and bandwidth on them? My typical Wikipedia inquiries are resolved primarily by the first paragraph or infobox, and maybe skimming one or two sections whose titles sounded relevant... Of course since we're transferring the text data anyway, it may not save much resources to just collapse/hide the text as we do now. Smarter behavior on lazy-loading of images might accomplish the bandwidth goals even better... Another thing to consider is that if we don't collapse the intermediate sections, and we don't also devise an alternate table of contents, people may never get to the later sections because it takes a LOT of scrolling to get to them. Yes, you can collapse each section one by one and not have to scroll much, but that strikes me a more difficult interaction to discover than expanding each section in turn... Def worth investigating. :) -- brion

James Alexander

5:46 p.m.

I think this is more a design question so I generally concede to whatever the mobile/design team thinks but as a user I really like the auto compressed nature not because of the loading situations but because of navigation on the phone. It makes it significantly easier to navigate around the page and find what I want (a built in much easier to user toc essentially) and helps my screen feel less cluttered as I read. I can understand the 'they don't toggle the lower sections' argument but on a personal level I'd agree with Brion, I often don't toggle the lower sections just because my question is already answered (main facts are almost always purposely pushed into the into and early sections) and am unlikely to read them more because they're uncollapsed. James James Alexander Legal and Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Jon Robson <jrobson(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

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+ design-l On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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Arthur Richards

5:51 p.m.

If we still want to explore dynamically loading article sections (which we all seemed to be in favor of when we did annual planning back in June), it's hard for me to imagine how we could realistically pull that off if we display sections uncollapsed as default. On a more personal note, I really value the collapsed sections since we don't display a ToC on the page - so the collapsed sections essentially replaces the ToC for quick article navigation. I would find the site less usable if we uncollapse sections by default and do not otherwise expose a ToC. On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:46 AM, James Alexander <jalexander(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:

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+ design-l On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

_______________________________________________ Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l

-- Arthur Richards Software Engineer, Mobile [[User:Awjrichards]] IRC: awjr +1-415-839-6885 x6687

Brion Vibber

6:05 p.m.

On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Arthur Richards <arichards(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:

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We could rig up an "infinite scroll" type of situation, where we basically: * load section 0 and section 1 * leave placeholder <div>s for sections 2 and beyond * when the user scrolls down into section 1, start loading section 2 in the background ** prepare the same thing for the bottom of section 2 load section 3, etc... Of course a problem with this setup is that if you go offline partway through reading the article, the later sections might be unavailable when you scroll down to them. -- brion

Quim Gil

6:18 p.m.

On 09/16/2013 10:34 AM, Jon Robson wrote:

...

The more I think about it, the more I think, in its current state mobile should not collapse sections by default.

Please keep them collapsed! As a user, I find the current implementation very good (and it would be superb if only the data shown was downloaded, saving kb for everybody and money for those not in flat rate). -- Quim

aude

6:28 p.m.

On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I think default collapsed is good but would be nice to have one place to click to "expand all" sections, instead of one-by-one. Cheers, Katie

...

Since we currently load all the HTML for the content of a page it seems silly to hide it (although we should certainly rethink this if we ever begin to lazy load sections) We ran event logging on toggling a while back [1] and the data showed as you got down the page, it was less likely a section would be toggled opened and read. I would propose we keep toggling enabled but change the default of all sections to be open rather than closed. This also removes the existing risk of a flash of unstyled content and enables the ability for users to do find on this page. We should at least run some kind of A/B test that rethinks this. Thoughts? [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Event_logging/Mobile#Section_toggles _______________________________________________ Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l

-- @wikimediadc / @wikidata

Amir Ladsgroup

7:03 p.m.

At first I want to say the type of device is important too, I use Xperia "mini" pro for navigating and the screen is so small that if I want reach a certain section when all sections are uncollapsed that would be impossible. I suggest to see the type of device too: 1-If someone is navigating via tablet (I don't know tablets are using Mobile design or not) expand all section and put a link named "collapse all sections" 2-If someone is navigating via cellphone specially small one. By default put it on collapsed and put a link named "uncollapse all sections" at the top of the page Best On 9/16/13, aude <aude.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I think default collapsed is good but would be nice to have one place to click to "expand all" sections, instead of one-by-one. Cheers, Katie

-- @wikimediadc / @wikidata

-- Amir

Juliusz Gonera

17 Sep 17 Sep

7:25 p.m.

On 09/16/2013 11:28 AM, aude wrote:

...

On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com <mailto:jdlrobson@gmail.com>> wrote: The more I think about it, the more I think, in its current state mobile should not collapse sections by default. If you really want to find a lower section, scrolling down the page and being able to collapse a section to see the next one is easy, yet if you just want to read the article in its entirety it is annoying to have to click to expand a section. I think default collapsed is good but would be nice to have one place to click to "expand all" sections, instead of one-by-one.

I thought about such a button too. It's on my todo, I'll put something together for the experimental mode when I have some time. -- Juliusz

Jon Robson

7:47 p.m.

...

On 09/16/2013 11:28 AM, aude wrote: On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I think default collapsed is good but would be nice to have one place to click to "expand all" sections, instead of one-by-one. I thought about such a button too. It's on my todo, I'll put something together for the experimental mode when I have some time. -- Juliusz _______________________________________________ Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l

Jon Robson

7:47 p.m.

+ design-l On 17 Sep 2013 12:47, "Jon Robson" <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

It's a very easy change to make - one line of code but it seems like the majority of people are saying a preference button is a bad idea. Personally I think it would be more useful use of time to get event logging up and running in some form to work out what is the best way of dealing with this problem and if it is a problem before coding anything... On 17 Sep 2013 12:25, "Juliusz Gonera" <jgonera(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: > On 09/16/2013 11:28 AM, aude wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> The more I think about it, the more I think, in its current state >> mobile should not collapse sections by default. If you really want to >> find a lower section, scrolling down the page and being able to >> collapse a section to see the next one is easy, yet if you just want >> to read the article in its entirety it is annoying to have to click to >> expand a section. >> > > I think default collapsed is good but would be nice to have one place > to click to "expand all" sections, instead of one-by-one. > > > I thought about such a button too. It's on my todo, I'll put something > together for the experimental mode when I have some time. > > -- > Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > Mobile-l mailing list > Mobile-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l > >

Juliusz Gonera

9:10 p.m.

I'm not talking about mobile settings, rather about something on the page itself. Although it's becoming cluttered there... But hey, it's alpha ;) On 09/17/2013 12:47 PM, Jon Robson wrote:

...

+ design-l On 17 Sep 2013 12:47, "Jon Robson" <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com <mailto:jdlrobson@gmail.com>> wrote: It's a very easy change to make - one line of code but it seems like the majority of people are saying a preference button is a bad idea. Personally I think it would be more useful use of time to get event logging up and running in some form to work out what is the best way of dealing with this problem and if it is a problem before coding anything... On 17 Sep 2013 12:25, "Juliusz Gonera" <jgonera(a)wikimedia.org <mailto:jgonera@wikimedia.org>> wrote: On 09/16/2013 11:28 AM, aude wrote:

I thought about such a button too. It's on my todo, I'll put something together for the experimental mode when I have some time. -- Juliusz _______________________________________________ Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l

Steven Walling

16 Sep 16 Sep

7:43 p.m.

On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Please no. Our articles are often very long, there's no easy way around that (for now). On touch devices, particularly those with smaller screen sizes, there is no easy way to navigate between sections. Expanding sections can actually make this *much *worse, increasing the amount of scrolling I have to do. The question of whether to expand or collapse sections by default would be less of a big deal if there was a persistent TOC or something like it. -- Steven Walling https://wikimediafoundation.org/

Kevin Rutherford

7:46 p.m.

I actually like the idea of it expanding as you go down, but we could also make it optional for users, so that we could get the best of both worlds. Kevin Rutherford Sent from my iPhone On Sep 16, 2013, at 3:44 PM, "Steven Walling" <swalling(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Please no. Our articles are often very long, there's no easy way around that (for now). On touch devices, particularly those with smaller screen sizes, there is no easy way to navigate between sections. Expanding sections can actually make this much worse, increasing the amount of scrolling I have to do. The question of whether to expand or collapse sections by default would be less of a big deal if there was a persistent TOC or something like it. -- Steven Walling https://wikimediafoundation.org/ _______________________________________________ Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l

_______________________________________________ Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l

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participants (11)

Amir Ladsgroup
Arthur Richards
aude
Brion Vibber
James Alexander
Jon Robson
Jon Robson
Juliusz Gonera
Kevin Rutherford
Quim Gil
Steven Walling