I have now given that image both templates and both sets of categories, which promptly caused a warning from Multichill :-) regards, Ole On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org>wrote;wrote: -- http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588

Hi Vacio, I don't quite understand your explanation - and I fail to see the merit of your 'solution'. First, you say that you get a lot of complaints of Armenian participants because their photos are tagged with an Azerbaijanian template. To me, this suggests that somehow, the buildings on those photos are recognized by the Azerbaijan government as monuments. That just means the Azerbaijan government thinks those are important buildings. But then you say that the wlm.az competition only lets one city participate (probably because the Azerbaijan government only recognized monuments in that city. That confuses me, because it seems to contradict with your earlier statement that you get a lot of complaints. The situation as it is (or should be) now is, that people can add heritage templates when a government recognizes that building as a monument. This is very helpful in many situations because many people simply forget to add this information. This includes a crazy situation where the Republic of Ireland (which does not participate by the way) would recognize a monument in the middle of Azerbaijan, then also this could be added. It is simply a sign of appreciation and matter of fact. Also, when a picture is 1) a monument recognized according to Country B's national definition and 2) fulfills the criteria of a given competition (submitted in the right month, license etc.), a template indicating that the picture participates in Country B's national WLM competition can be added. Based on these templates, the relevant categories will be added. But: this can only be /additional/. Templates like this should not be removed for other countries (with of course obvious exceptions, such as if there is a clear mistake etc - like last year when someone submitted the Eiffel tower in (I think) the Indian competition). I don't see good arguments to change this. I know this might be confusing and upsetting to some people who feel strongly about these cases, but then we should make an effort to explain that Wikimedia Commons, like Wikipedia, has a sense of Neutral Point of View. We don't decide which country is right, or even whether a country exists. Especially in these cases, we're focused on documenting these buildings, which clearly both the Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh government agree upon that they are important cultural heritage. Lodewijk 2013/9/19 Vacio <vacio(a)riseup.net>

Hi, I think it is great that these people shared their photos. In many countries there are uploaders from other countries, sometimes very active. This is something that always has been encouraged. So this is not really exceptional. And when I upload a picture, I might do the description in English or Dutch (my native language), but probably not in the local language. So also the fact that they use Armenian is not really something that surprises me. Independent of where the buildings are recognized. I have a hard time understanding why you are upset that their images are participating in two competitions. The Azerbaijan organizers are probably happy that buildings they consider important are being photographed. The photographers should be happy that their chances of winning a prize have doubled! (will you be the first person to win Wiki Loves Monuments in two countries? Even with one photo! Wouldn't that be amazing?) The only people that could potentially complain are the people who submitted photos in Azerbaijan directly - their chances of winning something have decreased. The Armenian competition didn't decrease in size and is not negatively affected at all. Of course I'm assuming that the azerbaijan organizers will take extra effort and care to make sure that the jury will act neutrally and independent /who/ made the photo. I see no injustness in the Azerbaijan competition following the Azerbaijan definition of what is a monument. I see no injustness in tagging photos accordingly if they are on that list. And I see definitely no injustness in giving Armenian photographers an extra chance to win a prize. I do agree that our life would probably be a bit easier if there was less overlap in definitions. But unfortunately these definitions are far from perfect, in each country. So I would like to thank a.arpi.a and vacio (and many others!) for their great contribution in photos, and hope that we can all continue constructively: getting more good images of important buildings. And of course I thank you too for your amazing 2500 images! With kind regards, Lodewijk 2013/9/19 Arman Musikyan <arman_musikyan(a)mail.ru>

To me that also seems as the solution. The fact whether something is a monument could be added, simply because it's a fact. The choice to enter the contest can be fixed on images (I've done so when I believe the uploaders intentions are to participate). But if the uploader makes clear that he or she does not wish to participate than the WLM-template should not be added. Mvg, Bas Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 11:39:57 -0300 From: osmar(a)wikimedia.org.ar To: wikilovesmonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org CC: arman_musikyan(a)mail.ru; members-list(a)wikimedia.am Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] [Wikimedia-AM members] Tech question: 2 WLM templates of different country contests on same file It is obvious that the bitter relationship between Armenia and Azerbaijan is something that should be considered and not ignored. Probably for everyone, taking a picture and participating in two contests would be amazing... but this is not the case and it is clear why it is not. I understand the issue that if you take a picture of something that has been declared as a monument in X country, the image can be tagged with the monument template (and categorized as such). But... I don't think that implies that you want to take part in Wiki Loves Monuments X. We have tagged pictures out of the contest with the monument template, but we are not tagging with {{Wiki Loves Monuments 2013|XX}} to any picture uploaded with a participating monument within the time frame. If I upload a picture of the Taj Mahal now, using the normal UploadWizard and not saying that I want to participate in WLM, nobody will put a template saying that it is indeed participating... then, why a picture of an Amernian contestant that don't want to take part in the Azerbaijani contest is tagged as such? IMHO, both monument templates should be kept in the images, but keep the original {{Wiki Loves Monuments 2013|XX}} template according to the participant. Osmar Valdebenito G. Director EjecutivoA. C. Wikimedia Argentina 2013/9/19 Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> Hi, I think it is great that these people shared their photos. In many countries there are uploaders from other countries, sometimes very active. This is something that always has been encouraged. So this is not really exceptional. And when I upload a picture, I might do the description in English or Dutch (my native language), but probably not in the local language. So also the fact that they use Armenian is not really something that surprises me. Independent of where the buildings are recognized. I have a hard time understanding why you are upset that their images are participating in two competitions. The Azerbaijan organizers are probably happy that buildings they consider important are being photographed. The photographers should be happy that their chances of winning a prize have doubled! (will you be the first person to win Wiki Loves Monuments in two countries? Even with one photo! Wouldn't that be amazing?) The only people that could potentially complain are the people who submitted photos in Azerbaijan directly - their chances of winning something have decreased. The Armenian competition didn't decrease in size and is not negatively affected at all. Of course I'm assuming that the azerbaijan organizers will take extra effort and care to make sure that the jury will act neutrally and independent /who/ made the photo. I see no injustness in the Azerbaijan competition following the Azerbaijan definition of what is a monument. I see no injustness in tagging photos accordingly if they are on that list. And I see definitely no injustness in giving Armenian photographers an extra chance to win a prize. I do agree that our life would probably be a bit easier if there was less overlap in definitions. But unfortunately these definitions are far from perfect, in each country. So I would like to thank a.arpi.a and vacio (and many others!) for their great contribution in photos, and hope that we can all continue constructively: getting more good images of important buildings. And of course I thank you too for your amazing 2500 images! With kind regards,Lodewijk 2013/9/19 Arman Musikyan <arman_musikyan(a)mail.ru> Hi dear Lodewijk, I turn to you as a one of most up-loader photos in the world. I think it is no correct, when unwillingly users moves to other arrangements. I couldn't understand Azerbaijan country's people behavior. How can they explain, what most of participants in wlm.az (http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/?pais=azerbaijan, also see attached pictures) are Armenians. Also, most of moved picture names written by Armenian letters. In attached statistic you cans see "A.arpi.a, Vacio, Vagharsh, Aydinyan, Ghulyan, Vahag851 users. They most uploaders after Interface and Urek Meniashvili, and because they are wlm.az organizers, A.arpi.a becomes most up-loader for Azerbaijan country. Is it correct ? For me it unjustness and need to correct it. I can understand, when this action do with new users, but when they do with wlm.az organizers, it's just shame for their country. If Azerbaijan's think, monuments in Nagorno-Karabakh theirs, they can go to this place and take photos. It's their problem. But they just stolen 149 pictures from Armenian WLM. It's unjust. I require to reset all mention users pictures history to first state. Best regards, Arman M. Четверг, 19 сентября 2013, 14:10 +02:00 от Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org>rg>: Hi Vacio, I don't quite understand your explanation - and I fail to see the merit of your 'solution'. First, you say that you get a lot of complaints of Armenian participants because their photos are tagged with an Azerbaijanian template. To me, this suggests that somehow, the buildings on those photos are recognized by the Azerbaijan government as monuments. That just means the Azerbaijan government thinks those are important buildings. But then you say that the wlm.az competition only lets one city participate (probably because the Azerbaijan government only recognized monuments in that city. That confuses me, because it seems to contradict with your earlier statement that you get a lot of complaints. The situation as it is (or should be) now is, that people can add heritage templates when a government recognizes that building as a monument. This is very helpful in many situations because many people simply forget to add this information. This includes a crazy situation where the Republic of Ireland (which does not participate by the way) would recognize a monument in the middle of Azerbaijan, then also this could be added. It is simply a sign of appreciation and matter of fact. Also, when a picture is 1) a monument recognized according to Country B's national definition and 2) fulfills the criteria of a given competition (submitted in the right month, license etc.), a template indicating that the picture participates in Country B's national WLM competition can be added. Based on these templates, the relevant categories will be added. But: this can only be /additional/. Templates like this should not be removed for other countries (with of course obvious exceptions, such as if there is a clear mistake etc - like last year when someone submitted the Eiffel tower in (I think) the Indian competition). I don't see good arguments to change this. I know this might be confusing and upsetting to some people who feel strongly about these cases, but then we should make an effort to explain that Wikimedia Commons, like Wikipedia, has a sense of Neutral Point of View. We don't decide which country is right, or even whether a country exists. Especially in these cases, we're focused on documenting these buildings, which clearly both the Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh government agree upon that they are important cultural heritage. Lodewijk 2013/9/19 Vacio <vacio(a)riseup.net> Dear all, I lack the technical background to comment on the discussion below. I just want to say this: I am frankly not so much concerned about which flag is placed where, or which country is mentioned where. I am only concerned that I get a lot of complains from Armenian participants of the contest, who see their photos appear in the wlm.az category rather than wlm.am (at the result of manual change of templates in their photos). Just to make clear why this bothers them. It is technically impossible for people who live in Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh to travel to Azerbaijan (let's say in case they become winners of wlm.az). (There are other issues as well, for instance, wlm.az seems to have only included the monuments of one city of Nagorno-Karabakh, while wlm.am included 4 provinces). This means that they are practically excluded from the contest (they have no chances to win). So, I suggest, that we, the WLM community, make a decision on how to solve this. I personally can think of two options: * We don't allow anyone to manually add templates to WLM images, at least until 30 September * We allow users to add only an alternative template which will not change hidden categories or any other metadata (I mean an alternative template of {{Cultural Heritage Azerbaijan}}). Please let us know if you can think of anything else. Vacio On 09/17/13 01:37 , Platonides wrote: On 16/09/13 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan wrote: Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM contest. If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest, with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue? Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc? Example of such image is: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%B… Thanks beforehand, Xelgen The tools at http://toolserver.org/~platonides/wlm2013/ will consider only the first template. Last year the database was designed to support a second country, but it was so exceptional that it wasn't implemented. I think we identified a single case of multicountry monumentness before the contest, plus perhaps a couple more found later for some rivers. I can easily add detection of multiple countries, the trickiness starts when querying it, which not only results in more complex checks for the database, but it's not even clear how it should be defined: What should be the answer for "How many images have am and az together?" Should Ամարասի_վանք,_վանքային_համալիր_....jpg be counted once (as for "How many images are in total?") or be the sum of images of both countries? How to count the number of countries in which a user did photos, etc. If the problem is limited to monuments in Azerbaijan and Armenia contests, it may be simpler for the bot to detect that case and internally map those images to an am+az pseudo-country. PS: I agree with Multichill, renaming a monument template (or adding new variants such as redirects to it) will make the bot to suddenly not detect the monument identifier. _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org _______________________________________________ Members-list mailing list Members-list(a)wikimedia.am http://hosting.shte.am/mailman/listinfo/members-list_wikimedia.am -- Arman Musikyan _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

hi Cristian, Thank you, I think that makes perfect sense. If you don't mind, I'll copy this text to the TP of WLM page in Commons. @Lodewijk, I just want to make sure I was correctly understood in my earlier message: Basically I was/am not against the idea that one monument could participate to the contest in 2 countries (Armenia and Azerbaijan in this case). Moreover, if a monument is recognized in two countries we should mention that one or another way (sure, that adds value to Commons!). The point was however that we would need proper preperation (and also intensive cooperation with Azerbaijani Wikimedians) to try to make this work. Frankly, even then I am not sure if we would succeed. As I mentioned, we can't travel to the other country, but we also can't send packages by post and as far as I know you can get in jail in Azerbaijan if you have contact with Armenian organizations (it is really shameful how Armenia and Azerbaijan live with each other..) But, anyhow, I think the international team made a reasonable decision. I will tell Armenian participants that they can remove templates added to their photos if they want to. Thank you all, Vacio On 09/20/13 02:20 , Cristian Consonni wrote: