Hi,
I think it is great that these people shared their photos. In many
countries there are uploaders from other countries, sometimes very active.
This is something that always has been encouraged. So this is not really
exceptional. And when I upload a picture, I might do the description in
English or Dutch (my native language), but probably not in the local
language. So also the fact that they use Armenian is not really something
that surprises me. Independent of where the buildings are recognized.
I have a hard time understanding why you are upset that their images are
participating in two competitions. The Azerbaijan organizers are probably
happy that buildings they consider important are being photographed. The
photographers should be happy that their chances of winning a prize have
doubled! (will you be the first person to win Wiki Loves Monuments in two
countries? Even with one photo! Wouldn't that be amazing?) The only people
that could potentially complain are the people who submitted photos in
Azerbaijan directly - their chances of winning something have decreased.
The Armenian competition didn't decrease in size and is not negatively
affected at all. Of course I'm assuming that the azerbaijan organizers will
take extra effort and care to make sure that the jury will act neutrally
and independent /who/ made the photo.
I see no injustness in the Azerbaijan competition following the Azerbaijan
definition of what is a monument. I see no injustness in tagging photos
accordingly if they are on that list. And I see definitely no injustness in
giving Armenian photographers an extra chance to win a prize. I do agree
that our life would probably be a bit easier if there was less overlap in
definitions. But unfortunately these definitions are far from perfect, in
each country.
So I would like to thank a.arpi.a and vacio (and many others!) for their
great contribution in photos, and hope that we can all continue
constructively: getting more good images of important buildings. And of
course I thank you too for your amazing 2500 images!
With kind regards,
Lodewijk
2013/9/19 Arman Musikyan <arman_musikyan(a)mail.ru>
Hi dear Lodewijk,
I turn to you as a one of most up-loader photos in the world. I think it
is no correct, when unwillingly users moves to other arrangements. I
couldn't understand Azerbaijan country's people behavior. How can they
explain, what most of participants in wlm.az (
http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/?pais=azerbaijan, also see attached
pictures) are Armenians. Also, most of moved picture names written by
Armenian letters.
In attached statistic you cans see "A.arpi.a, Vacio, Vagharsh, Aydinyan,
Ghulyan, Vahag851 users. They most uploaders after Interface and Urek
Meniashvili, and because they are wlm.az organizers, A.arpi.a becomes
most up-loader for Azerbaijan country. Is it correct ?
For me it unjustness and need to correct it. I can understand, when this
action do with new users, but when they do with wlm.az organizers, it's
just shame for their country.
If Azerbaijan's think, monuments in Nagorno-Karabakh theirs, they can go
to this place and take photos. It's their problem. But they just stolen 149
pictures from Armenian WLM. It's unjust.
I require to reset all mention users pictures history to first state.
Best regards,
Arman M.
Четверг, 19 сентября 2013, 14:10 +02:00 от Lodewijk <
lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org>gt;:
Hi Vacio,
I don't quite understand your explanation - and I fail to see the merit of
your 'solution'.
First, you say that you get a lot of complaints of Armenian participants
because their photos are tagged with an Azerbaijanian template. To me, this
suggests that somehow, the buildings on those photos are recognized by the
Azerbaijan government as monuments. That just means the Azerbaijan
government thinks those are important buildings.
But then you say that the wlm.az competition only lets one city
participate (probably because the Azerbaijan government only recognized
monuments in that city. That confuses me, because it seems to contradict
with your earlier statement that you get a lot of complaints.
The situation as it is (or should be) now is, that people can add heritage
templates when a government recognizes that building as a monument. This is
very helpful in many situations because many people simply forget to add
this information. This includes a crazy situation where the Republic of
Ireland (which does not participate by the way) would recognize a monument
in the middle of Azerbaijan, then also this could be added. It is simply a
sign of appreciation and matter of fact.
Also, when a picture is 1) a monument recognized according to Country B's
national definition and 2) fulfills the criteria of a given competition
(submitted in the right month, license etc.), a template indicating that
the picture participates in Country B's national WLM competition can be
added.
Based on these templates, the relevant categories will be added.
But: this can only be /additional/. Templates like this should not be
removed for other countries (with of course obvious exceptions, such as if
there is a clear mistake etc - like last year when someone submitted the
Eiffel tower in (I think) the Indian competition).
I don't see good arguments to change this. I know this might be confusing
and upsetting to some people who feel strongly about these cases, but then
we should make an effort to explain that Wikimedia Commons, like Wikipedia,
has a sense of Neutral Point of View. We don't decide which country is
right, or even whether a country exists. Especially in these cases, we're
focused on documenting these buildings, which clearly both the Azerbaijan
and Nagorno-Karabakh government agree upon that they are important cultural
heritage.
Lodewijk
2013/9/19 Vacio
<vacio@riseup.net<https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3avacio@riseup.net>
Dear all,
I lack the technical background to comment on the discussion below. I just
want to say this: I am frankly not so much concerned about which flag is
placed where, or which country is mentioned where. I am only concerned that
I get a lot of complains from Armenian participants of the contest, who see
their photos appear in the wlm.az category rather than wlm.am (at the
result of manual change of templates in their photos).
Just to make clear why this bothers them. It is technically impossible for
people who live in Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh to travel to Azerbaijan
(let's say in case they become winners of wlm.az). (There are other
issues as well, for instance, wlm.az seems to have only included the
monuments of one
city<https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediya:Viki_Abid%C9%99l%C9%99ri_S…
Nagorno-Karabakh, while
wlm.am included 4
provinces<https://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D4%BC%D5%82%D5%80_%D5%BA%D5%A1%…
).
This means that they are practically excluded from the contest (they have
no chances to win). So, I suggest, that we, the WLM community, make a
decision on how to solve this.
I personally can think of two options:
* We don't allow anyone to manually add templates to WLM images, at least
until 30 September
* We allow users to add only an alternative template which will not change
hidden categories or any other metadata (I mean an alternative template of
{{Cultural Heritage Azerbaijan}}).
Please let us know if you can think of anything else.
Vacio
On 09/17/13 01:37 , Platonides wrote:
On 16/09/13 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan wrote:
Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM
contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest,
with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign
necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
Example of such image is:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%B…
Thanks beforehand,
Xelgen
The tools at
http://toolserver.org/~platonides/wlm2013/ will consider
only the first template.
Last year the database was designed to support a second country, but it
was so exceptional that it wasn't implemented. I think we identified a
single case of multicountry monumentness before the contest, plus perhaps a
couple more found later for some rivers.
I can easily add detection of multiple countries, the trickiness starts
when querying it, which not only results in more complex checks for the
database, but it's not even clear how it should be defined: What should be
the answer for "How many images have am and az together?" Should
Ամարասի_վանք,_վանքային_համալիր_....jpg be counted once (as for "How many
images are in total?") or be the sum of images of both countries?
How to count the number of countries in which a user did photos, etc.
If the problem is limited to monuments in Azerbaijan and Armenia contests,
it may be simpler for the bot to detect that case and internally map those
images to an am+az pseudo-country.
PS: I agree with Multichill, renaming a monument template (or adding new
variants such as redirects to it) will make the bot to suddenly not detect
the monument identifier.
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Arman Musikyan