[Wikisource-l] Pages without text
Birgitte SB
birgitte_sb at yahoo.com
Fri Oct 16 14:07:23 UTC 2009
I don't think the impossibility of perfection is an argument against better accuracy.
Birgitte SB
--- On Thu, 10/15/09, Cecil <cecilatwp at gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Cecil <cecilatwp at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages without text
> To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library" <wikisource-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 1:16 AM
> Birgitte SB: please read ThomasV's
> statement a little bit up this thread, the one where he
> explains why and for what level 0 was introduced in the
> beginning. That is one of the problems. Each community
> considers something different to fall among that state.
>
> With the last PR2-update it suddenly was no more possible
> to switch already finished projects to PR2, because it was
> disabled for a person to immediately select
> 'finished'-state. As an example (I did that switch
> to PR2 just a few days before): http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Seite:De_Neue_Thalia_Band1_385.jpg
> was immediately set to finished because the poem was already
> proofreaded twice (http://de.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Das_Bildni%C3%9F&action=history).
> But it belonged to a large story collection (http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:Neue_Thalia,_Erster_Band)
> which also is just a part of seven such books. They are part
> of our currently most important community project which
> should be finished until November 10th. Because of the short
> time left all books were switched to PR2 so that more people
> can work on them and also have a better overview which
> poem/story/... in which book is already finished and which
> not. I finished the whole switch just a few days before the
> mediawiki-update. A few days later I would not have been
> able anymore to set the pages to 'finished'.
>
> When I complained about that to ThomasV, he suggested to
> use level 0 for it, since it is a finished page and no more
> proofreading needs to be done. He would even rename the
> 'without text' to fit it better and the pages still
> would land in category 'finished'.
>
>
> Does this sound to you like the statistics of this level
> would be useable to determine how many pages a project has
> finished and how many there are that are just empty? Not to
> me. So those people who for some reason need statistics
> wouldn't be able to get a real result out of it anyway,
> because one projects uses it for really empty pages, the
> other one also for those with less than ~10 words and the
> next one for pages that do not need proofread for some or
> the other reason, even if they are full of text.
>
>
> Cecil
>
>
>
> (The other solution suggested by ThomasV would have been to
> create a list of all pages and
> which state they are and then let a bot or a second user
> correct the state
> of those pages that I would not be able to do. The 7
> Thalia-bands have
> 3279 pages full of text and a few more with index,
> introduction, headers and first pages, so you can imagine
> how difficult it would have been to
> maintain those lists without any chaos and always obtain a
> format that the bot can deal with.)
>
>
>
> 2009/10/14 Michael Jörgens <joergens.mic at googlemail.com>
>
> Birgitte SB that was the reason,
> why my text wasn't as polite as it should be. It sounded
> off-topic for me.
>
>
> joergens.mi
> 2009/10/14 Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com>
>
>
> Thank you for explaining, this
> discussion would have been off-topic in the other thread.
> I am not someone that finds statistics to be a big deal,
> but I have learned that others feel deeply about such
> issues. The statistics total all pages marked
> "4" and report this as the number of pages a
> subdomain has proofread and validated. So when compared to
> other subdomains which mark empty pages with "0"
> the numbers of de.WS are slightly inflated. The current
> state of things is that other subdomains do not count empty
> pages in their totals while de.WS does. I appreciate your
> introducing the situation to the local community.
>
>
>
>
>
> Birgitte SB
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Michael Jörgens <joergens.mic at googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > From: Michael Jörgens <joergens.mic at googlemail.com>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages without text
>
> > To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free
> library" <wikisource-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>
> > Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 2:29 PM
>
> > Sorry, that was my fault, I
> didn't read
>
> > the topic right, i thougt this discussion is still
> part of
>
> > the topic [Wikisource-l]
>
> > Proofreading.
>
> >
>
> > From
>
> > my personal point of view, there is no difference
> between
>
> > this pages. I see no need to distinguish empty und
> full
>
> > pages. The final state means, all work needed is done
> with
>
> > this page.
>
> > In
>
> > general I like statistiks, but never mind, I would
> never
>
> > count empty pages.
>
> > On
>
> > the other hand if others like to do, no problem in
>
> > general.
>
> > I
>
> > think we will introduce this question to our community
> and
>
> > we will make a decision. Changes can be done by bot,
> as I
>
> > understand.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > sincerly
>
> > joergens.mi
>
> > 2009/10/14 Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com>
>
> >
>
> > I sorry you find the concerns other people have to be
>
> > "empty" and "silly". Perhaps in
> the
>
> > future you could ignore the threads on smaller issues
>
> > without comment. It would really help keep things
> more
>
> > congenial.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Birgitte SB
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Michael Jörgens <joergens.mic at googlemail.com>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > From: Michael Jörgens <joergens.mic at googlemail.com>
>
> >
>
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages
>
> > without text
>
> >
>
> > > To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the
> free
>
> > library" <wikisource-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>
> >
>
> > > Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 12:15 PM
>
> >
>
> > > Is there a need for
>
> > this
>
> >
>
> > > ''empty discussion'' about empty
>
> > pages
>
> >
>
> > > here,
>
> >
>
> > > The main point ist to find an for all acceptable
>
> >
>
> > > way of working together with Thomas. In a way
>
> >
>
> > > that Thomas is satisfied and feels comfortable,
>
> > taking the
>
> >
>
> > > problems he see's into concern and the
> problems
>
> > some
>
> >
>
> > > projects have.
>
> >
>
> > > And it should be a compromise that all can
> accept,
>
> >
>
> > > without feeling overruled by others.
>
> >
>
> > > With this in the background the other discussion
>
> >
>
> > > is simply silly. Some are talking about some
> pages,
>
> > which
>
> >
>
> > > in total are below 1%, there are bigger issues
> to
>
> >
>
> > > solve.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > sincerly joergens.mi
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > 2009/10/14 Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb at yahoo.com>
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I
>
> >
>
> > > disagree in general with the idea that everyone
> must
>
> >
>
> > > conform. There is room for the communities to
>
> > develop
>
> >
>
> > > their own solutions. Hopefully when one
> community
>
> > proves
>
> >
>
> > > that some solution has good results others will
> learn
>
> > from
>
> >
>
> > > their experience and adopt it. But there needs
> to be
>
> > room
>
> >
>
> > > for experimentation.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > In this specific case, it seems to me this is
> more of
>
> >
>
> > > legacy issue on de.WS rather than a deliberate
> choice.
>
> > If
>
> >
>
> > > they (as well as every other subdomains) conform
> to
>
> > the
>
> >
>
> > > standards the majority of Wikisources use then
> the
>
> >
>
> > > comparative numbers between Wikisources will be
> more
>
> >
>
> > > accurate. I don't see a strong reason for
> de.WS
>
> >
>
> > > deciding to not conform here. But it is a bunch
> of
>
> > tedious
>
> >
>
> > > work and it should be thoroughly discussed. It
> would
>
> > be
>
> >
>
> > > very nice if de.WS took the time to consider the
> issue
>
> > and
>
> >
>
> > > let us know what the consensus turns out to be.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > However we can always make a footnote when
> people
>
> > choose to
>
> >
>
> > > count things differently and estimate with data
>
> > crunching.
>
> >
>
> > > (i.e. Of 1000 validated pages on the top three
>
> > non-de.WS
>
> >
>
> > > subdomains the average number of empty pages is
> X
>
> > (A%),
>
> >
>
> > > therefore an estimate of de.WS validated
> non-empty
>
> > page is
>
> >
>
> > > the given total minus the A% of the given total)
>
> > This is
>
> >
>
> > > not an unsolvable issue and I am sure sooner of
> later
>
> > some
>
> >
>
> > > subdomain will discover a good reason to do
> something
>
> >
>
> > > differently.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Birgitte SB
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Syagrius <syagrius at gmx.fr>
>
> >
>
> > > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > From: Syagrius <syagrius at gmx.fr>
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages without
> text
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > To: "discussion list for Wikisource,
> the
>
> > free
>
> >
>
> > > library" <wikisource-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 10:47 AM
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > #yiv579852079 html, #yiv579852079
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > {}#yiv579852079 html
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
> {width:100%;height:100%;margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv579852079
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > {font-size:100.01%;font-family:Verdana,
> Geneva,
>
> >
>
> > > Arial,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Helvetica,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
> sans-serif;background-color:transparent;background-image:none;margin:0px;padding:5px;}#yiv579852079
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > p {margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv579852079
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > {font-size:12px;font-family:Verdana,
> Geneva,
>
> > Arial,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Helvetica,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> > sans-serif;background-color:#FFFFFF;}#yiv579852079 p
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > {margin:0;padding:0;}#yiv579852079
> blockquote
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
> {padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px;}#yiv579852079
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > blockquote.quote {border-left:1px solid
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > #CCC;padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;} If
> the
>
> >
>
> > > Wikisources have adopted
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > some common rules, every sublanguage
>
> >
>
> > > should follow it. On
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > the other hand, I don't understand why
> you
>
> >
>
> > > don't
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > want to transform these empty pages, since
> en.ws
>
> >
>
> > > and fr.ws
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > already did it and a bot could do it very
>
> > easily.
>
> >
>
> > > There
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > would be absolutely no loss of quality or
>
> >
>
> > > credibility...
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Syagrius
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > ----- Message
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > d'origine -----De : John
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > VandenbergEnvoyés : 14.10.09 02:03À :
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > discussion list for Wikisource,
> the
>
> > free
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > libraryObjet : Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages
> without
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > text On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:12
>
> >
>
> > > AM, Cecil
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Syagrius, could you please explain why
> this
>
> > would
>
> >
>
> > > be
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > "irrespectuous toward
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > other wikisources" when we mark
> them as
>
> > part
>
> >
>
> > > of a
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > 'finished' project?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > It is not a part of the same work.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Advertisements are a _different_ work, and
> it has
>
> > not
>
> >
>
> > > been
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > transcribed.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > It should be marked as a incomplete.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Advertisements are also sources....
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Category:Advertisements
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > :-)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > --
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > John Vandenberg
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Wikisource-l mailing list
>
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> > > > Wikisource-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>
> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> >
>
> > >
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> >
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> > > >
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> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > >
>
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> > >
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> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > _______________________________________________
>
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> >
>
> > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> > _______________________________________________
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