RE: [Wikipedia-l] Re: An honorable compromise and no: or nb: for Bokmål?

Thu Nov 11 13:55:34 UTC 2004

Could you give some examples of the differences between the three forms of
Norwegian?

James 

-----Original Message-----
From: wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Lars Alvik
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 2:04 PM
To: wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: An honorable compromise and no: or nb: for
Bokmål?

>
>
> På 11. nov. 2004 kl. 10.56 skrev Ulf Lunde:
>
>> I have presented all my arguments in favor of a separate 
>> nb:-Wikipedia, and I don't have any new ones.  (Jeremy has understood 
>> the political issue perfectly.)
>>
>> But since some people on this list (notably Lars Aronsson and Lars
>> Alvik) apparently
>> still do not get it, I will attempt some analogies which may make it 
>> easier (for anyone not familiar with nynorsk) to grasp the 
>> provocativeness of the problem.  I will also try again to explain why 
>> there will be no "dead links" and only very little "extra work"
>> associated with my proposed solution.
>>
>>
>> Lars Alvik wrote:
>>
>>> The idea nowadays is to change the interwikicoding and provide a list
>>> of reasons why bokmål is no: (like Utne suggested). This would 
>>> create a
>>> bokmål/riksmål wiki on no: and formalize the language situation. And
>>> yes, i see this as an permanent solution.
>>
>> Lars Aronsson wrote:
>>
>>> To most non-Norwegians, and I think also for many Norwegians, the 
>>> concept of
>>> the "Norwegian" language (written and spoken) is easy to understand
>>> and unambigious.   [meaning that for most foreigners, Norwegian = 
>>> Bokmål]
>>
>> My reply to both of these comments is (and I hope there are some Mac 
>> or Linux
>> users on this list, or my point may be moot):
>>
>> To most web surfers, and I think also for many wikipedians, the 
>> concept of
>> "computer" is easy to understand and unambiguously identical to 
>> "Windows".
>>
>> The problems arise when Microsoft (read: either of the Norwegian 
>> languages)
>> pretends to have monopoly on the concept "computer" (read: 
>> "Norwegian").
>>
>> When Bokmål users or Nynorsk users pretend this, the other group is
>> just as upset
>> as amerindians are when third generation European Americans pretend 
>> to have
>> monopoly on American heritage.
>>
>>
>> Lars Alvik also wrote:
>>
>>> Just moving no: to nb: creates a lot of problem and establish an own
>>> nb: wiki idependantly of no: would kill the community and confuze new
>>> users (i for one don't think it's fun to move around 11 500 
>>> articles).
>>
>> I, for one, don't think that what Lars Alvik thinks is fun should
>> dictate the name of the Bokmål Wikipedia, when we have an unambiguous
>> set of ISO language codes which
>> is used for all other Wikipedias.  :-)
>>
>> The fact that many foreigners (and some Norwegians) "feel" that
>> "Norwegian" equals
>> "Bokmål", is an emotional issue which should not lead a serious
>> project like Wikipedia
>> to break with established naming conventions.
>>
>>
>> Having given the problem a lot of thought, I can see no *practical 
>> problems*
>> in having separate no: and nb: Wikipedias (in addition to the nn: 
>> one) alive
>> at the same time.  There need be no *confusion*, either:
>>
>> Articles which exist only in Bokmål or only in Nynorsk, can be left at
>> the common no:
>> Wikipedia indefinitely.  No "moving around 11.500 articles" is 
>> required.
>>
>> New articles may be written in the no: Wikipedia, regardless of 
>> language form.
>> Visiting users need not even know that Norwegian has two written
>> forms; they will
>> find only articles in *Norwegian* (of which some will be in Bokmål,
>> some in Nynorsk).
>>
>> When someone writes the same article in the other language, the first
>> article should be
>> moved from no: to nb: (if it is in Bokmål) or to nn: (if it is in
>> Nynorsk).  The no: article
>> should leave only pointers to both, preferably with some indication
>> about the length
>> (or other attributes) of each article.  Admittedly, this is slightly
>> more work than just writing
>> an interwiki link in the new article, but it is hardly "a lot of extra
>> work".  Given the amount
>> of eager programmers in the Wikipedia community, I reckon that a tool
>> for "moving the
>> article, calculating its size, and leaving a link" would probably soon
>> appear as a simple
>> click-button on every page of no:.  (Or a bot could periodically be
>> set to just move all
>> pages where the language is known, out of no: and into their
>> respective databases.)
>>
>> Other Wikipedias may (and perhaps should?) always link to no:
>> (Norwegian), regardless
>> of whether the article is in Bokmål or in Nynorsk.  If only one of the
>> two forms exists,
>> there should be a #OMDIRIGER (which equals #REDIRECT) directive in 
>> no: to the
>> existing article, so there will not be any intermediate pages or any
>> extra clicking when
>> there is no ambiguity.
>>
>> Of course, brand new articles would be written in the nb: and nn:
>> Wikipedias also.  When
>> this happens, we should make sure that links to these appear in no:
>> within a reasonable
>> amount of time.  Personally I think this will happen on its own
>> account, because of alert
>> Wikipedians who like to look for, and correct, such missing
>> redirections.  But it would be
>> simple to get a bot to do the search on a daily basis, if necessary.
>>
>> An open question is how to write intrawiki links.  Should nn: contain
>> links only to no:, or should it be possible to link from one nn:
>> article to another (which is the default today)?
>> Note that this is not a problem which arises from the proposed change,
>> it is an existing
>> problem today, and something which should be adressed anyway, as long
>> as we allow
>> for Nynorsk (or Bokmål) articles to exist solely in no:, like we do
>> (for both languages) today.
>>
>> Norwegian is a special language and merits special treatment.
>> Wikipedia sysops may
>> see the case of the Norwegian language as an exercise and a step in
>> the direction of
>> a multilingual Wikipedia!
>>
>> Ulf Lunde
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>

I still don't se the problem, and i don't like being told as a 12th 
generation norwegian, that my language are foreign. I still don't see 
your point of view.

Ok, what i think is fun is building a enclopedia, in norwegian, the 
last days i've seen the fun in that evaporate slowly. And i know that a 
new nb: wiki would be a cripped one, so in effect it's cripping us. And 
i belive the point that the overwhelming majority of no: is accualy 
articles in bokmål is a important one.

A bokmål wiki at no:

1. Ads to nynorsk (provided nynorsk does the same)
2. Change in interwikidecoding to "norsk (bokmål)" (and nynorsk to 
"norsk (nynorsk)")
3. An own page on the mainpage of no: explaining why bokmål is no:
4. Bokmål and Riksmål (conservative bokmål) is allowed on the bokmål 
wiki, nynorsk would be allowed but articles in nynorsk wouldn't be 
"protected" from translation.

PS. i don't know why you wanted this debate in english, you ignore the 
english speaking when they try to aproch the matter, and my english is 
crappy (atleast that's something we all can agre on).

mvh. Lars Alvik
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