[Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Thu Sep 5 14:04:19 UTC 2013

Lars,

Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes?

Fred

> I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. I
> think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this
> thread.
>
> To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the
> Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users. I
> have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman,
> both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they themselves
> object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki.
>
> That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to
> which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an structural
> error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big
> organization.
>
> I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled.
> They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same
> people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil.
>
> So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this type
> of problems.
>
> Regards,
> Lars Gardenius
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
> An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
> CC: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>;
> "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
>
> I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia (I
> have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would
> welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the
> result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more
> interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.)
>
>
> Steve ZhangSent from my iPad
>
> On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
> wrote:
>
>
> Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't work.
> Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Lars Gardenius
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>> Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
>>An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>; Wikimedia Mailing List
>> <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>CC: "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>; Wikimedia Mailing
>> List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>> itself
>>
>>
>>I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not work
>> now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about
>> everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things
>> harder)
>>
>>Steve Zhang
>>Sent from my iPad
>>
>>On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
>>>
>>> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in a
>>> worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't work
>>> now.
>>>
>>> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out
>>> persons that they don't like is very naive.
>>> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the
>  Wikis are no exception.
>>>
>>> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other
>>> Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide
>>> behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users
>>> from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui
>>> Correia's email)
>>>
>>> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks
>>> alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal
>>> conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must be
>>> put in place.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>> itself
>>>
>>>
>>> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. See
>>> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who
>>> bump
>>> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have learned
>>> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content.
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>>>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the
>>>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading
>>>> position.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>   Von: Rui Correia <correia.rui at gmail.com>
>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
>>>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Greetings to All
>>>>
>>>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not
>>>> compared
>>>> to
>>>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a
>>>> long
>>>> list
>>>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>>>>
>>>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave
>>>> the
>>>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore
>>>> having
>>>> to
>>>>
>  fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>>>>
>>>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis
>>>> is
>>>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
>>>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of
>>>> people
>>>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
>>>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the
>>>> 'outsider'
>>>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets
>>>> 'good
>>>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to
>>>> temper
>>>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is
>>>> round
>>>> at
>>>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is
>>>> making
>>>> the
>>>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a
>  cabal.
>>>>
>>>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>>>>
>>>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
>>>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
>>>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and
>>>> everbody
>>>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we
>>>> know
>>>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear
>>>> you!".
>>>>
>>>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly
>>>> -
>>>> was
>>>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are
>>>> legions
>>>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know
>>>> that
>>>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
>>>> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>>>>
>>>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
>>>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back
>>>> to
>>>> XP.
>>>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP
>>>> is
>>>> an
>>>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>>>>
>>>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of
>>>> offending
>>>> the
>>>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant -
>>>> not
>>>> the
>>>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
>>>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was
>>>> immediately
>>>> closed,
>  labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
>>>> that
>>>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>>>>
>>>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed
>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I
>>>> don't
>>>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in
>>>> eight
>>>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a
>>>> number
>>>> of
>>>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am
>  happy to see
>>>> that
>>>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales
>>>> in
>>>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>>>>
>>>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with
>>>> a
>>>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>>>>
>>>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>>>>
>>>> Rui Correia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> _________________________
>>>> Rui Correia
>>>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
>>>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>>>>
>>>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
>>>> NÃºmero de TelemÃ³vel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186
>>>> _______________
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>