[Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Thu Sep 5 16:56:55 UTC 2013

Well that is pretty easy: that Wiki-org will follow the example put up by many countries, companies and schools.

Create an independent instance (i.e. in this case independent of the Wikis) that you can turn to when you are offended, insulted, mobbed, harassed or in any way mistreated by people in the Wikis.

Since so many seems to misunderstand this question, it is not meant to handle questions about content or policies in the separate Wikis, but only about the normal human behaviour that we have agreed on shall be present in a society (today not including the Wikis).

It is also important that this independent instance shall be responsible for that the behaviour in the Wikis are within the boundaries of the outside society, and therefore also has the right to intervene in a Wiki, when members of that Wiki cross that boundary. 

Today there is an increasing problem with mobbing on the Internet. I don't want the Wikis to be an enclave where this is still allowed.

Regards,
Lars Gardenius

________________________________
 Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org> 
Gesendet: 16:04 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Lars,

Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes?

Fred

> I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. I
> think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this
> thread.
>
> To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the
> Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users. I
> have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman,
> both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they themselves
> object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki.
>
> That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to
> which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an structural
> error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big
> organization.
>
> I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled.
> They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same
> people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil.
>
> So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this type
> of problems.
>
> Regards,
> Lars Gardenius
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
> An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
> CC: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>;
> "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
>
> I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia (I
> have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would
> welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the
> result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more
> interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.)
>
>
> Steve ZhangSent from my iPad
>
> On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
> wrote:
>
>
> Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't work.
> Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Lars Gardenius
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>> Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
>>An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>; Wikimedia Mailing List
>> <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>CC: "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>; Wikimedia Mailing
>> List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>> itself
>>
>>
>>I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not work
>> now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about
>> everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things
>> harder)
>>
>>Steve Zhang
>>Sent from my iPad
>>
>>On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
>>>
>>> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in a
>>> worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't work
>>> now.
>>>
>>> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out
>>> persons that they don't like is very naive.
>>> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the
>  Wikis are no exception.
>>>
>>> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other
>>> Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide
>>> behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users
>>> from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui
>>> Correia's email)
>>>
>>> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks
>>> alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal
>>> conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must be
>>> put in place.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>> itself
>>>
>>>
>>> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. See
>>> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who
>>> bump
>>> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have learned
>>> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content.
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>>>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the
>>>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading
>>>> position.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>   Von: Rui Correia <correia.rui at gmail.com>
>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
>>>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Greetings to All
>>>>
>>>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not
>>>> compared
>>>> to
>>>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a
>>>> long
>>>> list
>>>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>>>>
>>>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave
>>>> the
>>>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore
>>>> having
>>>> to
>>>>
>  fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>>>>
>>>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis
>>>> is
>>>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
>>>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of
>>>> people
>>>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
>>>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the
>>>> 'outsider'
>>>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets
>>>> 'good
>>>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to
>>>> temper
>>>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is
>>>> round
>>>> at
>>>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is
>>>> making
>>>> the
>>>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a
>  cabal.
>>>>
>>>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>>>>
>>>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
>>>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
>>>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and
>>>> everbody
>>>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we
>>>> know
>>>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear
>>>> you!".
>>>>
>>>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly
>>>> -
>>>> was
>>>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are
>>>> legions
>>>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know
>>>> that
>>>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
>>>> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>>>>
>>>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
>>>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back
>>>> to
>>>> XP.
>>>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP
>>>> is
>>>> an
>>>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>>>>
>>>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of
>>>> offending
>>>> the
>>>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant -
>>>> not
>>>> the
>>>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
>>>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was
>>>> immediately
>>>> closed,
>  labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
>>>> that
>>>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>>>>
>>>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed
>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I
>>>> don't
>>>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in
>>>> eight
>>>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a
>>>> number
>>>> of
>>>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am
>  happy to see
>>>> that
>>>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales
>>>> in
>>>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>>>>
>>>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with
>>>> a
>>>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>>>>
>>>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>>>>
>>>> Rui Correia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> _________________________
>>>> Rui Correia
>>>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
>>>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>>>>
>>>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
>>>> NÃºmero de TelemÃ³vel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186
>>>> _______________
>>>>
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