[Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Thu Sep 5 13:33:12 UTC 2013

I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. I think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this thread.

To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users. I have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman, both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they themselves object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki.

That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an structural error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big organization.

I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled. They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil.

So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this type of problems.

Regards,
Lars Gardenius

________________________________
 Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de> 
CC: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>; "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net> 
Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia (I have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.)

Steve ZhangSent from my iPad

On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de> wrote:

Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't work. Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow.
>
>Regards,
>Lars Gardenius
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
> Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
>An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>; Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org> 
>CC: "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>; Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org> 
>Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
> 
>
>I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not work now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things harder)
>
>Steve Zhang
>Sent from my iPad
>
>On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de> wrote:
>
>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
>> 
>> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in a worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't work now.
>> 
>> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out persons that they don't like is very naive. 
>> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the
 Wikis are no exception.
>> 
>> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui Correia's email)
>> 
>> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must be put in place.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards
>> Lars Gardenius
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org> 
>> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>> 
>> 
>> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. See
>> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who bump
>> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have learned
>> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content.
>> 
>> Fred
>> 
>>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the
>>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading position.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Lars Gardenius
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>>   Von: Rui Correia <correia.rui at gmail.com>
>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
>>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Greetings to All
>>> 
>>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared
>>> to
>>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long
>>> list
>>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>>> 
>>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
>>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having
>>> to
>>>
 fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>>> 
>>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
>>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
>>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
>>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
>>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the
>>> 'outsider'
>>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
>>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to
>>> temper
>>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round
>>> at
>>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making
>>> the
>>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a
 cabal.
>>> 
>>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>>> 
>>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
>>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
>>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
>>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
>>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".
>>> 
>>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly -
>>> was
>>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
>>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know
>>> that
>>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
>>> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>>> 
>>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
>>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to
>>> XP.
>>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is
>>> an
>>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>>> 
>>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending
>>> the
>>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not
>>> the
>>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
>>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
>>> closed,
 labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
>>> that
>>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>>> 
>>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.
>>> 
>>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I
>>> don't
>>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
>>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number
>>> of
>>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am
 happy to see
>>> that
>>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
>>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>>> 
>>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
>>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>>> 
>>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>>> 
>>> Rui Correia
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> _________________________
>>> Rui Correia
>>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
>>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>>> 
>>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
>>> NÃºmero de TelemÃ³vel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186
>>> _______________
>>>
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