[Gendergap] Wars

Thu Mar 17 03:14:57 UTC 2011

Aw,
We were doing so well there for a minute and then it got into wars! I agree
with Carol about needing to move on to a new topic. Laura, I think your
emails are getting out of line with the purpose of the group.

Let's get back to producing ideas and methods, no?

Carissa

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:14 PM, <gendergap-request at lists.wikimedia.org>wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: FW: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for        women and
>      transgender, sublist for male supporters (Ryan Kaldari)
>   2. Re: The problem is aggression.... was ... Proposal: Forking
>      gendergap: (carolmooredc at verizon.net)
>   3. Re: The problem is aggression.... was ... Proposal: Forking
>      gendergap: (SlimVirgin)
>   4. Re: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and
>      transgender, sublist for male supporters (Erik Moeller)
>   5. Re: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and
>      transgender, sublist for male supporters (Fred Bauder)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:49:00 -0700
> From: Ryan Kaldari <rkaldari at wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] FW: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list
>        for     women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
> To: gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <4D814C6C.8020602 at wikimedia.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Marc, I don't think you're improving the "communication problem" you
> describe by telling people their ideas are "nonsense", "self-serving",
> or "insulting". Yes, Laura's ideas are challenging, but getting overly
> defensive doesn't help the discussion.
>
> Kaldari
>
> On 3/16/11 1:58 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:
> >
> > ----------
> > *From: *Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net>
> > *Date: *Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:49:32 -0400
> > *To: *Laura Hale <laura at fanhistory.com>
> > *Subject: *Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for
> > women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
> >
> > Laura, your interpretation of my words is strikingly self-serving, and
> > your solutions would serve to widen whatever gap exists in the
> > Project. This entire "problem" is not one of gender, but of individual
> > persons having problems communicating with a particular group of other
> > persons. My question to all of those who state that they have a
> > problem communicating with, or feel intimidated by, a male in the
> > venue of a mailing list such as this, is do you have the same problem
> > in person? There are many, many strong, intelligent voices in the
> > Wikipedia Project who also happen to be female. And to include them in
> > this "gendergap", and suggest that this is strictly a gender issue, is
> > an insult to them.
> >
> > Marc
> >
> > on 3/16/11 4:06 PM, Laura Hale at laura at fanhistory.com wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >     On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Marc Riddell
> >     <michaeldavid86 at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >         This is simply, nonsense!
> >
> >
> >     That is your opinion, and you're welcome to it.  In my experience,
> >     there are two general groups of women:
> >
> >     1.  One who welcome men as participants in events specifically
> >     targeting women, because the women feel the men can learn.
> >     2.  One who don't want men involved because they feel women should
> >     work towards their own self interests and that women behave
> >     differently around men.
> >
> >         Don't you people realize that separating this List
> >         into two distinct ones would underline, reinforce and actually
> >         signify the
> >         very "gendergap" you are allegedly trying to resolve.
> >
> >
> >     This pretty much is why I think we need men off the list.  While
> >     you're intending to or not, I'm reading this as "Don't you
> >     understand that the only way women can succeed it by having men
> >     involved! You need men!"  If you're not intending to send the
> >     message: Women cannot succeed with out men!, then you may want to
> >     reconsider your wording.
> >
> >     And I'd argue the opposite: Men have done an awful job at
> >     recruiting women to be involved with Wikipedia.  The current
> >     problems exist because men have tried to "solve" this problem.
> >
> >         This is people talking
> >         with people. If there is a female or male here who has a problem
> >         communicating with, or in the presence of, another gender -
> >         they do have a
> >         problem.
> >
> >
> >     Translation: "Women! You're the problem!  If you could stop
> >     engaging in female modes of communication, we could fix this
> >     problem! "
> >
> >     This list is NOT a general list for increasing the participation
> >     rates of people.  If you want to have a list dedicated to
> >     generally increasing the participation rates of people on
> >     Wikipedia, then fork off and do that.
> >
> >
> >         But a website Mailing List such as this is not the place to
> >         resolve
> >         it.
> >
> >
> >     Am I supposed to interpret this as you claiming that this list has
> >     a mission that will never succeed because it acknowledges there
> >     are gender differences and different approaches are needed to get
> >     different audiences?  As a woman, a representative of a minority
> >     group on Wikipedia, how am I supposed to respond to you?  I can
> >     tell you that this post of yours makes me feel distinctly
> >     uncomfortable posting to this list.  It seems to put men in the
> >     position of power above women, demanding that women participate
> >     only in male modes of communication, that women on the list can't
> >     talk about genuine concerns they have as women because they are
> >     going to get blown off, and that feelings of men on the list are
> >     more important then women.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gendergap mailing list
> > Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:52:14 -0400
> From: carolmooredc at verizon.net
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] The problem is aggression.... was ...
>        Proposal: Forking gendergap:
> To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
>        <gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID: <4D814D2E.4060105 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I second. The problem is aggression and trying to impose one's agenda,
> and whether you are male, female, M2F transgender or F2M transgender,
> you can be aggressive and disruptive. (And I've been on a couple all
> women lists over the years where M2F transgenders were very aggressive,
> condescending and disruptive.) I don't see any agreement with Ms. Hale's
> proposal and I think we need to drop it.
>
> On 3/16/2011 7:01 PM, B?ria Lima wrote:
> > I completely agree with Fluffy.
> > _____
> > /B?ria Lima/
> > Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt>
> > (351) 963 953 042
> >
> > /Imagine um mundo onde ? dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> > livre acesso ao somat?rio de todo o conhecimento humano. ? isso o que
> > estamos a fazer./
> >
> >
> > 2011/3/16 ChaoticFluffy <chaoticfluffy at gmail.com
> > <mailto:chaoticfluffy at gmail.com>>
> >
> >     I also don't have a problem with Erik's POV in particular. My
> >     views on this topic are basically that:
> >
> >     1) Yes, some of the men here are being excessively strident and
> >     dismissive in a lot of cases
> >     2) Yes, I feel less inclined to speak my mind because I know that
> >     I'm going to have to defend every point I make from three or four
> >     men telling me how it's not a problem
> >     3) No, I don't think the solution is to fork the list. We have to
> >     function with men onwiki, there's no reason to kick them off here
> >     4) I'm not sure how moderation could be used effectively other
> >     than to have moderators speak to people who are overly dismissive.
> >     Having a moderator approve all posts seems excessive, but I would
> >     support, say, an X-strikes-you're-out policy regarding belittling
> >     or dismissive behavior
> >     5) I don't think it's constructive to require the men to justify
> >     themselves to us or the list. If they're here, they're here
> >     because they want to work on the gender gap. That said...
> >     6) I don't know how many more ways we women can tell you guys that
> >     some of you are coming across as obnoxious. I'm sorry if that
> >     offends you (mostly because I'm a woman and I've been trained to
> >     be sorry if I offend people, hey look how that works), but YOU
> >     ARE. Please accept that this is happening, it's making the women
> >     unhappy, and we'd like you to think before you speak from now on.
> >     7) Please do NOT immediately protest that you feel like the mean
> >     feminist women are trying to oppress you by telling you all this.
> >     Feel like we're snap-judging your statements? Feel like we're
> >     treating you as your gender rather than yourself, and unfairly so?
> >     Feel like we're just not listening to the points you're trying to
> >     make? WELCOME TO OUR WORLD AS WOMEN.
> >
> >     -Fluff
> >
> >
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:59:05 -0600
> From: SlimVirgin <slimvirgin at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] The problem is aggression.... was ...
>        Proposal: Forking gendergap:
> To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
>        <gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTikTAaRThHG2ceEfG9N4F4gZuCGQ8tpZ6NfEr0LG at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 17:52,  <carolmooredc at verizon.net> wrote:
> > I second. The problem is aggression and trying to impose one's agenda,
> and
> > whether you are male, female, M2F transgender or F2M transgender, you can
> be
> > aggressive and disruptive. (And I've been on a couple all women lists
> over
> > the years where M2F transgenders were very aggressive, condescending and
> > disruptive.) I don't see any agreement with Ms. Hale's proposal and I
> think
> > we need to drop it.
> >
> It's true, though, that there are things I would post about Wikipedia
> on a women-only list, if I could be 100 percent sure that's what it
> was. And as if to prove that point, I just typed out an example, then
> deleted it because I felt uncomfortable. :)  So even if Laura's
> proposal isn't being supported, I hope it gives food for thought. And
> there's nothing to stop her from setting up such a list herself.
>
> Sarah
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:59:01 -0700
> From: Erik Moeller <erik at wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for
>        women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
> To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
>        <gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTimKiY-fEaH7NsXk9kKZAqHZhXru_x2sCxw59LdA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Laura,
>
> I don't find the tone of your messages in this thread an acceptable
> basis for constructive conversation. On that basis, I am going to
> disengage from this thread.
>
> Respectfully,
> Erik
> --
> Erik M?ller
> Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
>
> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:14:10 -0600 (MDT)
> From: "Fred Bauder" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for
>        women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
> To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"
>        <gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
>        <43584.66.243.192.69.1300320850.squirrel at webmail.fairpoint.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> > On 3/16/11 1:42 PM, Fred Bauder wrote:
> >> I will continue to joke around a bit, but you're free to not be amused.
> >
> > Fred, I really don't think this response is appropriate. If people are
> > complaining that your humor is exacerbating the problem rather helping
> > the discussion, don't you think it would be sensible to exercise some
> > discretion?
> >
> > Kaldari
>
> I am exercising considerable discretion. I'm not going to walk on
> eggshells though. Throwing a hissy fit over every word or phrase you
> don't like is no good either. We deal with disruptive people and
> disruptive language 24/7. In a way, that is what we do. I've seen
> Mau-Mauing before, and I don't respect it; I may make fun of it.
>
> The reference is literary, see
>
> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Radical_Chic_%26_Mau-Mauing_the_Flak_Catchers#.22Mau-Mauing_the_Flak_Catchers.22
>
> Fred
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of Gendergap Digest, Vol 2, Issue 25
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>

-- 
510-984-3458 | Skype: Carissa.W
www.carissawodehouse.com
@CWhoa
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