Aw, <div>We were doing so well there for a minute and then it got into wars! I agree with Carol about needing to move on to a new topic. Laura, I think your emails are getting out of line with the purpose of the group. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Let's get back to producing ideas and methods, no? <br><br>Carissa<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:14 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Send Gendergap mailing list submissions to<br>
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
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<br>
<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: FW: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and<br>
transgender, sublist for male supporters (Ryan Kaldari)<br>
2. Re: The problem is aggression.... was ... Proposal: Forking<br>
gendergap: (<a href="mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net">carolmooredc@verizon.net</a>)<br>
3. Re: The problem is aggression.... was ... Proposal: Forking<br>
gendergap: (SlimVirgin)<br>
4. Re: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and<br>
transgender, sublist for male supporters (Erik Moeller)<br>
5. Re: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and<br>
transgender, sublist for male supporters (Fred Bauder)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:49:00 -0700<br>
From: Ryan Kaldari <<a href="mailto:rkaldari@wikimedia.org">rkaldari@wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] FW: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list<br>
for women and transgender, sublist for male supporters<br>
To: <a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4D814C6C.8020602@wikimedia.org">4D814C6C.8020602@wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Marc, I don't think you're improving the "communication problem" you<br>
describe by telling people their ideas are "nonsense", "self-serving",<br>
or "insulting". Yes, Laura's ideas are challenging, but getting overly<br>
defensive doesn't help the discussion.<br>
<br>
Kaldari<br>
<br>
On 3/16/11 1:58 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:<br>
><br>
> ----------<br>
> *From: *Marc Riddell <<a href="mailto:michaeldavid86@comcast.net">michaeldavid86@comcast.net</a>><br>
> *Date: *Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:49:32 -0400<br>
> *To: *Laura Hale <<a href="mailto:laura@fanhistory.com">laura@fanhistory.com</a>><br>
> *Subject: *Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for<br>
> women and transgender, sublist for male supporters<br>
><br>
> Laura, your interpretation of my words is strikingly self-serving, and<br>
> your solutions would serve to widen whatever gap exists in the<br>
> Project. This entire "problem" is not one of gender, but of individual<br>
> persons having problems communicating with a particular group of other<br>
> persons. My question to all of those who state that they have a<br>
> problem communicating with, or feel intimidated by, a male in the<br>
> venue of a mailing list such as this, is do you have the same problem<br>
> in person? There are many, many strong, intelligent voices in the<br>
> Wikipedia Project who also happen to be female. And to include them in<br>
> this "gendergap", and suggest that this is strictly a gender issue, is<br>
> an insult to them.<br>
><br>
> Marc<br>
><br>
> on 3/16/11 4:06 PM, Laura Hale at <a href="mailto:laura@fanhistory.com">laura@fanhistory.com</a> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Marc Riddell<br>
> <<a href="mailto:michaeldavid86@comcast.net">michaeldavid86@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> This is simply, nonsense!<br>
><br>
><br>
> That is your opinion, and you're welcome to it. In my experience,<br>
> there are two general groups of women:<br>
><br>
> 1. One who welcome men as participants in events specifically<br>
> targeting women, because the women feel the men can learn.<br>
> 2. One who don't want men involved because they feel women should<br>
> work towards their own self interests and that women behave<br>
> differently around men.<br>
><br>
> Don't you people realize that separating this List<br>
> into two distinct ones would underline, reinforce and actually<br>
> signify the<br>
> very "gendergap" you are allegedly trying to resolve.<br>
><br>
><br>
> This pretty much is why I think we need men off the list. While<br>
> you're intending to or not, I'm reading this as "Don't you<br>
> understand that the only way women can succeed it by having men<br>
> involved! You need men!" If you're not intending to send the<br>
> message: Women cannot succeed with out men!, then you may want to<br>
> reconsider your wording.<br>
><br>
> And I'd argue the opposite: Men have done an awful job at<br>
> recruiting women to be involved with Wikipedia. The current<br>
> problems exist because men have tried to "solve" this problem.<br>
><br>
> This is people talking<br>
> with people. If there is a female or male here who has a problem<br>
> communicating with, or in the presence of, another gender -<br>
> they do have a<br>
> problem.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Translation: "Women! You're the problem! If you could stop<br>
> engaging in female modes of communication, we could fix this<br>
> problem! "<br>
><br>
> This list is NOT a general list for increasing the participation<br>
> rates of people. If you want to have a list dedicated to<br>
> generally increasing the participation rates of people on<br>
> Wikipedia, then fork off and do that.<br>
><br>
><br>
> But a website Mailing List such as this is not the place to<br>
> resolve<br>
> it.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Am I supposed to interpret this as you claiming that this list has<br>
> a mission that will never succeed because it acknowledges there<br>
> are gender differences and different approaches are needed to get<br>
> different audiences? As a woman, a representative of a minority<br>
> group on Wikipedia, how am I supposed to respond to you? I can<br>
> tell you that this post of yours makes me feel distinctly<br>
> uncomfortable posting to this list. It seems to put men in the<br>
> position of power above women, demanding that women participate<br>
> only in male modes of communication, that women on the list can't<br>
> talk about genuine concerns they have as women because they are<br>
> going to get blown off, and that feelings of men on the list are<br>
> more important then women.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Gendergap mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap" target="_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap</a><br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:52:14 -0400<br>
From: <a href="mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net">carolmooredc@verizon.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] The problem is aggression.... was ...<br>
Proposal: Forking gendergap:<br>
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects<br>
<<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4D814D2E.4060105@verizon.net">4D814D2E.4060105@verizon.net</a>><br>
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<br>
I second. The problem is aggression and trying to impose one's agenda,<br>
and whether you are male, female, M2F transgender or F2M transgender,<br>
you can be aggressive and disruptive. (And I've been on a couple all<br>
women lists over the years where M2F transgenders were very aggressive,<br>
condescending and disruptive.) I don't see any agreement with Ms. Hale's<br>
proposal and I think we need to drop it.<br>
<br>
On 3/16/2011 7:01 PM, B?ria Lima wrote:<br>
> I completely agree with Fluffy.<br>
> _____<br>
> /B?ria Lima/<br>
> Wikimedia Portugal <<a href="http://wikimedia.pt" target="_blank">http://wikimedia.pt</a>><br>
> (351) 963 953 042<br>
><br>
> /Imagine um mundo onde ? dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter<br>
> livre acesso ao somat?rio de todo o conhecimento humano. ? isso o que<br>
> estamos a fazer./<br>
><br>
><br>
> 2011/3/16 ChaoticFluffy <<a href="mailto:chaoticfluffy@gmail.com">chaoticfluffy@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:chaoticfluffy@gmail.com">chaoticfluffy@gmail.com</a>>><br>
><br>
> I also don't have a problem with Erik's POV in particular. My<br>
> views on this topic are basically that:<br>
><br>
> 1) Yes, some of the men here are being excessively strident and<br>
> dismissive in a lot of cases<br>
> 2) Yes, I feel less inclined to speak my mind because I know that<br>
> I'm going to have to defend every point I make from three or four<br>
> men telling me how it's not a problem<br>
> 3) No, I don't think the solution is to fork the list. We have to<br>
> function with men onwiki, there's no reason to kick them off here<br>
> 4) I'm not sure how moderation could be used effectively other<br>
> than to have moderators speak to people who are overly dismissive.<br>
> Having a moderator approve all posts seems excessive, but I would<br>
> support, say, an X-strikes-you're-out policy regarding belittling<br>
> or dismissive behavior<br>
> 5) I don't think it's constructive to require the men to justify<br>
> themselves to us or the list. If they're here, they're here<br>
> because they want to work on the gender gap. That said...<br>
> 6) I don't know how many more ways we women can tell you guys that<br>
> some of you are coming across as obnoxious. I'm sorry if that<br>
> offends you (mostly because I'm a woman and I've been trained to<br>
> be sorry if I offend people, hey look how that works), but YOU<br>
> ARE. Please accept that this is happening, it's making the women<br>
> unhappy, and we'd like you to think before you speak from now on.<br>
> 7) Please do NOT immediately protest that you feel like the mean<br>
> feminist women are trying to oppress you by telling you all this.<br>
> Feel like we're snap-judging your statements? Feel like we're<br>
> treating you as your gender rather than yourself, and unfairly so?<br>
> Feel like we're just not listening to the points you're trying to<br>
> make? WELCOME TO OUR WORLD AS WOMEN.<br>
><br>
> -Fluff<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:59:05 -0600<br>
From: SlimVirgin <<a href="mailto:slimvirgin@gmail.com">slimvirgin@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] The problem is aggression.... was ...<br>
Proposal: Forking gendergap:<br>
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects<br>
<<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:AANLkTikTAaRThHG2ceEfG9N4F4gZuCGQ8tpZ6NfEr0LG@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTikTAaRThHG2ceEfG9N4F4gZuCGQ8tpZ6NfEr0LG@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 17:52, <<a href="mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net">carolmooredc@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> I second. The problem is aggression and trying to impose one's agenda, and<br>
> whether you are male, female, M2F transgender or F2M transgender, you can be<br>
> aggressive and disruptive. (And I've been on a couple all women lists over<br>
> the years where M2F transgenders were very aggressive, condescending and<br>
> disruptive.) I don't see any agreement with Ms. Hale's proposal and I think<br>
> we need to drop it.<br>
><br>
It's true, though, that there are things I would post about Wikipedia<br>
on a women-only list, if I could be 100 percent sure that's what it<br>
was. And as if to prove that point, I just typed out an example, then<br>
deleted it because I felt uncomfortable. :) So even if Laura's<br>
proposal isn't being supported, I hope it gives food for thought. And<br>
there's nothing to stop her from setting up such a list herself.<br>
<br>
Sarah<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:59:01 -0700<br>
From: Erik Moeller <<a href="mailto:erik@wikimedia.org">erik@wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for<br>
women and transgender, sublist for male supporters<br>
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects<br>
<<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:AANLkTimKiY-fEaH7NsXk9kKZAqHZhXru_x2sCxw59LdA@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTimKiY-fEaH7NsXk9kKZAqHZhXru_x2sCxw59LdA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
Laura,<br>
<br>
I don't find the tone of your messages in this thread an acceptable<br>
basis for constructive conversation. On that basis, I am going to<br>
disengage from this thread.<br>
<br>
Respectfully,<br>
Erik<br>
--<br>
Erik M?ller<br>
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation<br>
<br>
Support Free Knowledge: <a href="http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate" target="_blank">http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:14:10 -0600 (MDT)<br>
From: "Fred Bauder" <<a href="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net">fredbaud@fairpoint.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for<br>
women and transgender, sublist for male supporters<br>
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"<br>
<<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:43584.66.243.192.69.1300320850.squirrel@webmail.fairpoint.net">43584.66.243.192.69.1300320850.squirrel@webmail.fairpoint.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1<br>
<br>
> On 3/16/11 1:42 PM, Fred Bauder wrote:<br>
>> I will continue to joke around a bit, but you're free to not be amused.<br>
><br>
> Fred, I really don't think this response is appropriate. If people are<br>
> complaining that your humor is exacerbating the problem rather helping<br>
> the discussion, don't you think it would be sensible to exercise some<br>
> discretion?<br>
><br>
> Kaldari<br>
<br>
I am exercising considerable discretion. I'm not going to walk on<br>
eggshells though. Throwing a hissy fit over every word or phrase you<br>
don't like is no good either. We deal with disruptive people and<br>
disruptive language 24/7. In a way, that is what we do. I've seen<br>
Mau-Mauing before, and I don't respect it; I may make fun of it.<br>
<br>
The reference is literary, see<br>
<a href="https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Radical_Chic_%26_Mau-Mauing_the_Flak_Catchers#.22Mau-Mauing_the_Flak_Catchers.22" target="_blank">https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Radical_Chic_%26_Mau-Mauing_the_Flak_Catchers#.22Mau-Mauing_the_Flak_Catchers.22</a><br>
<br>
Fred<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
End of Gendergap Digest, Vol 2, Issue 25<br>
****************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>510-984-3458 | Skype: Carissa.W<br><a href="http://www.carissawodehouse.com" target="_blank">www.carissawodehouse.com</a><br>@CWhoa<br><br><br>
</div>