[Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians

Thu Nov 27 19:07:41 UTC 2008

Thomas;

Thank you for your answers to my questions. I was under the impression that the chapter had been approved in February, but I must have been wrong. Since a Brazilian lawyer has cleared the bylaws, I have no further legal concerns. Am I correct in assuming now that we have a big misunderstanding? 

Geoffrey

________________________________
From: Thomas de Souza Buckup <thomasdesouzabuckup at gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 8:57:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians

Geoffrey,

Here are some answers to your questions:

*1. "why the chapter is still not legally organized?"*

Since October, a legal entity could have already been created with the
approved bylaws, but I personally didn't push this forward because a
discussion about another version of the bylaws began around the same time.
Although I thought the approved bylaws were adequate, I wrote on Meta that I
agreed that we should wait until more people could be heard on the matter. I
wrote here and on our Brazilian list that I was in favour of waiting until
next February to discuss whether or not the bylaws should be changed before
legally launching the chapter, in order to give two months for more people
to provide their point of view.

A very important lesson I learned from this experience is that the lack of a
legal structure and its official representatives--which requires us to
exclusively count on the engagement of empowered volunteers working together
in a non-hierarchical way--can be very beneficial for a local chapter during
its early existence. Of course there should come a day when a legal entity
will be necessary and funds will be raised, but the history of Wikipedia,
the Wikimedia Foundation and the first projects of Wikimedia Brasil prove
that much can be done with no money at all, as long as you have many
empowered volunteers. A potential side effect is that without a
legal structure and official representatives, some people may stir up
trouble more often than usual.  But I still think that this approach is the
most relevant we have.

*2. "whether or not the bylaws are legally ok as written?"*
**
Before we sent the bylaws to the Chapters Committee, they were reviewed by
Bruno Magrani, a lawyer from Creative Commons Brasil that kindly volunteered
to provide legal support.

I'm guessing that most of the readers on this list were unaware of the
details of the Brazilian Wikimedia chapter before having gotten involved in
the discussion started by Luiz Augusto. I'll do my best to answer any
further questions you may have.

Abracos,
Thomas

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 12:48 AM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Porantim, unfortunately we have a unique set of circumstances here. The
> fact that the discussions are in a language that many may be unable to read
> is a major hindrance. If you can point to the particular posts, then you
> will have met the proof issue. That being said, I do have some questions,
> mainly about why the chapter is still not legally organized, and whether or
> not the bylaws are legally ok as written. The membership section still
> disturbs me.
>
>
> ----
>
>
> Porantim,
> infelizmente, temos um único conjunto de circunstâncias aqui. O fato de
> que as discussões estão em um idioma que muitos podem ser incapazes de
> ler é um grande entrave. Se você pode apontar para os lugares
> particular, então você vai ter atendido a prova questão. Dito isto,
> ainda tenho algumas dúvidas, principalmente sobre o motivo do capítulo
> ainda não está legalmente organizada, e se existem ou não são
> juridicamente o estatuto social ok como está escrita. A filiação seção
> ainda me perturba.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Porantim <porantim at gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:27:44 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
>
> Geoffrey,
>
> We came here, on this list, looking for other opinions. Looking for any
> kind
> of light.
>
> We don't really need that you *make* somethink, but we need your expertise,
> we need your view, your look [I don't know how I can say that].
>
> We came here to open your eyes about the danger of a chapter without clear
> positions can make, too.
>
> Nobody says "work on bylaws was silenced *by Thomas*", but the evidences of
> the problems is in our discussion list. Unfortunately, we can't translate
> all the messages to english to show that and I think you have a lot of
> other
> issues to take care.
>
> Nobody request to "kill" a chapter too. We request to start again. Start
> again because the process has transformed in a addicted process. *This*
> addicted process is "killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of
> work". You see?
>
> Any way, perhaps this conversation can't make anythink more.
>
> When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more have
> to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the community,
> no more remain to do.
>
> You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then, when
> he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what more
> remain.
>
> Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no argument
> against that, when that is de unique argument.
>
> I apologize to do you lost your time.
>
> My hope is that I am wrong (and the remain of brazillian wikimedians) and
> Jimmy and his friend are rigth.
>
> I apologize too if any of my words sounds offensive. I can't speak english
> well.
>
> Thanks Geoffrey about your care in try to translate your messages to
> portuguese.
>
> Saludos
>
> -- Porantim
>
>
>
>
> 2008/11/26 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd at yahoo.com>
>
> > Beria,
> >
> > I meant no offense by my remarks. I apologize if any was taken, that was
> > not the point. By disruptive, I was not referring to Luiz, but the
> request
> > to kill a chapter, for the reasons listed below.
> >
> > I don't believe that killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of
> > work is going to solve any dispute. I am going off what we have
> currently.
> > As far as I can see, we have an assertion that work on bylaws was
> silenced
> > by Thomas. We have two people that vouch for his character (Mr. Wales,
> you).
> > We do not have any hard evidence proving that Thomas killed the
> discussion.
> > If there is some, we should see it. Otherwise, it appears that this is
> > simple dissatisfaction which in my not so humble opinion has no place on
> > this list.
> >
> >
> > Since some people may be unable to follow this thread, I have translated
> my
> > comments into something that resembles Portuguese.
> >
> > Respectfully Yours;
> >
> > Geoffrey Plourde
> >
> > -----
> > Beria,
> >
> > Eu quis dizer que não ofenda por minhas observações.
> > Peço desculpas se alguma foi tomada, não foi esse o ponto. Por
> > perturbador, não me referia ao Luiz, mas o pedido de matar um capítulo,
> > pelos motivos listados abaixo.
> >
> > Não creio que matar a
> > manifestação de milhares de horas de trabalho está indo para resolver
> > qualquer litígio. Eu vou desligar o que temos actualmente. Tanto quanto
> > eu posso ver, temos um trabalho em alegação de que foi silenciada pelo
> > Estatuto Social Thomas. Temos duas pessoas que atestam a sua personagem
> > (Mr. País de Gales, você). Nós não temos qualquer evidência sólida de
> > provar que Thomas mataram a discussão. Se houver algum, que devemos
> > encará-la. Caso contrário, parece que este é simples insatisfação que,
> > na minha modesta opinião não assim não tem lugar nesta lista.
> >
> > Uma vez que algumas pessoas pode não ser capaz de seguir essa linha, eu
> > tenho o meu comentário traduzido em algo que se assemelha Português.
> >
> > Yours respeitosamente;
> >
> > Geoffrey Plourde
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Béria Lima <berialima at gmail.com>
> > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 3:08:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
> >
> > Geoffrey...
> >
> > The guy whit you are talking is one of the best sysops on pt.wikipedia.
> > Don't be maniqueist please.
> >
> > The case is: Thomas is a good guy... but in the mailing list he stopped
> all
> > the process of consensus. The problem is not just a discussion of
> Porantim
> > and Thomas... are more of 10 wikipedist that agree whit Porantim, me and
> > Luiz Augusto. Don't ut that in terms of "dispurtive", "vandal" or
> anything
> > about that...
> >
> > We are discuss the bylaws again... because that mensage of Luiz. Before
> > that
> > Thomas and another user don't permit the dialog.
> >
> > Att, Béria Lima
> >
> > 2008/11/25 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd at yahoo.com>
> >
> > > I agree, why the hell should we blow off a couple thousand hours of
> work
> > > and toast a chapter? While there may be some issues in the bylaws and
> > they
> > > still need to legally organize, there is more support for this chapter
> > than
> > > some of the European ones.
> > >
> > > My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia-inc.com>
> > > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:42:35 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
> > >
> > > Luiz Augusto wrote:
> > > > This is what we need: to stop the current attempt and start it again
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
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-- 
Thomas de Souza Buckup
thomasdesouzabuckup at gmail.com
+55 11 3477-2834
+55 11 9213-3931
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