[Foundation-l] Concern for the safety of Wikimedians at Wikimania in Alex...

Wed Mar 5 20:48:16 UTC 2008

Hoi,
For your information, I had not thought of you as Jewish, it did not occur
to me. Also it is not only Jews that ended up in a concentration camp.
Members of my family ended up in a concentration camp in WW II.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hoi,
>
> Who is this we you speak of Gerard? Are you so arrogant that you think
> you speak for every Wikimedian? You've seen first hand that there are
> quite a few people who share my opinion on this list. Do you speak for
> them too? Disagree with my opinions, but how dare you put words into
> my mouth: I've never told anyone here how to live their lives. You
> must be mistaking that for constructive criticism. You obviously are
> out of touch with what's going on because we can't just "leave it to
> the WMF to assess the situation": they weren't going to do so until we
> spoke up. Is that "not letting you live your lives?" How hypocritical
> is that statement. What about "Dan if you want to go to Wikimania, you
> can't be publicly jewish." "Mike, if you want to go to Wikimania, you
> can't be publicly gay".  Is that your impression of letting people
> live their own lives?
>
> Or am I not letting you go to Wikimania if you so choose? The only way
> that would happen would be if the foundation actually agrees with me
> that, gosh, there may just be legitimate concerns after all, at which
> point, it becomes their decision. Feel free to continue with the
> hyperbole though, it's fun.
>
> Invoking concentration camp images is both irrelevant and offensive,
> especially since we're talking about discrimination against Jews. You
> want an open and inviting conference? Host it in an open and inviting
> country (here's a hint: Egypt is not it). In answer to your question:
> yes. You may blame me for it all you want, and I will feel free to
> point and laugh at you, and call you an arrogant jackass who can't
> take the idea that the foundation can do wrong.
>
>  Cut the "we" crap, and the generalizations. Speak for yourself
> alone; you don't speak for anyone else.
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
> On Mar 5, 2008, at 3:25 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > So who is terrorised? Who wants to sit at home and wait for a knock
> > on the
> > door. A knock on the door that may never come. You are not coming
> > and yet
> > you insist on determining for others what risk they take. It is
> > clear to
> > everyone who is going that you are afraid for us. Thank you for
> > wishing us
> > well. But please let us live our lives. Please leave it to the WMF
> > to assess
> > the situation and consider what needs to be done. Please let this
> > information be private and take appropriate measures. But please let
> > us not
> > have a concentration camp in Alexandria, let us have a Wikimania
> > that is
> > inviting to its participants and to the journalists and other people
> > that
> > make Wikimania what it is; an open inviting conference.
> >
> > One question, can we blame you when there is no Wikimania this year?
> > Are you
> > willing to take this blame, this responsibility?
> > Thanks,
> >    GerardM
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> More tasteless than saying "If our conference goers die, we can spin
> >> it so that they're martyrs and its a positive thing for us"? Pot,
> >> kettle.... I like how nobody came out to say that Ray's offensive and
> >> tasteless remark was out of line, but the minute it's something not
> >> in
> >> favor of Alexandria, suddenly "OMG THIS IS TASTELESS!".
> >>
> >> As for solid info, there is plenty of evidence showing that there
> >> is a
> >> heightened risk, namely several country's embassies and state
> >> departments labeling travel in Egypt.....get this...."heightened
> >> risk".
> >>
> >> If people see the warnings, and choose to dismiss them, like Ray,
> >> that's fine. But that then puts the responsibility solely on them,
> >> and
> >> nobody else. For individual's that's one thing, but for that to be on
> >> the foundation as a whole (namely, if something were to happen, the
> >> foundation having "ignored the signs", the responsibility would be
> >> squarely on them), is a cause for concern.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mar 5, 2008, at 2:58 PM, George Herbert wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dan, this is tasteless.  We still don't have any solid info or
> >>> analysis that
> >>> there's a heightened risk to be afraid of.
> >>>
> >>> -george
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Dan Rosenthal
> >>> <swatjester at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Yes, lets be thinking about how to spin the deaths of our
> >>>> conference
> >>>> goers as a "positive". I'm sure their families will be happy to
> >>>> hear
> >>>> that, especially if the foundation acted negligently in causing
> >>>> that
> >>>> death. That's something it absolutely should be worried about.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Dan
> >>>> On Mar 5, 2008, at 1:18 PM, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Andrew Whitworth wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 5:55 PM, Lars Aronsson <lars at aronsson.se>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Andrew Whitworth wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A single murder, or a single rape, or a single instance of any
> >>>>>>>> other violent crime would have a massive chilling effect on
> >>>>>>>> Wikimania, and possibly all of Wikimedia. We should never run
> >>>>>>>> this risk, even if that means we have to abandon Wikimania
> >>>>>>>> entirely.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think you are being ridiculous.  A single murder at
> >>>>>>> Wikimania in
> >>>>>>> Boston or Frankfurt wouldn't have this all-chilling effect, and
> >>>>>>> neither will a single murder in Alexandria.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> You're saying that a murder of a prominent wikimedian at a
> >>>>>> wikimania
> >>>>>> wouldn't have significant negative consequences. I may not be
> >>>>>> completely accurate here, but I doubt this possibility is
> >>>>>> "rediculous".
> >>>>> The negative consequences of having one of our own martyred would
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> turn people against us; it could certainly be spun into a
> >>>>> positive.
> >>>>> Ifg
> >>>>> one of our people were the killer that would be a different
> >>>>> matter.
> >>>>> Generally, however, I'm prepared to relegate either scenario to
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> far
> >>>>> reaches of imagination.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ec
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> -george william herbert
> >>> george.herbert at gmail.com
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
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