[Foundation-l] Concern for the safety of Wikimedians at Wikimania in Alex...

[Dan Rosenthal]

Millions of people ended up in a concentration camp in WWII. What does  
that have anything to do with Wikimania?

-Dan
On Mar 5, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Hoi,
> For your information, I had not thought of you as Jewish, it did not  
> occur
> to me. Also it is not only Jews that ended up in a concentration camp.
> Members of my family ended up in a concentration camp in WW II.
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>>
>> Who is this we you speak of Gerard? Are you so arrogant that you  
>> think
>> you speak for every Wikimedian? You've seen first hand that there are
>> quite a few people who share my opinion on this list. Do you speak  
>> for
>> them too? Disagree with my opinions, but how dare you put words into
>> my mouth: I've never told anyone here how to live their lives. You
>> must be mistaking that for constructive criticism. You obviously are
>> out of touch with what's going on because we can't just "leave it to
>> the WMF to assess the situation": they weren't going to do so until  
>> we
>> spoke up. Is that "not letting you live your lives?" How hypocritical
>> is that statement. What about "Dan if you want to go to Wikimania,  
>> you
>> can't be publicly jewish." "Mike, if you want to go to Wikimania, you
>> can't be publicly gay".  Is that your impression of letting people
>> live their own lives?
>>
>> Or am I not letting you go to Wikimania if you so choose? The only  
>> way
>> that would happen would be if the foundation actually agrees with me
>> that, gosh, there may just be legitimate concerns after all, at which
>> point, it becomes their decision. Feel free to continue with the
>> hyperbole though, it's fun.
>>
>> Invoking concentration camp images is both irrelevant and offensive,
>> especially since we're talking about discrimination against Jews. You
>> want an open and inviting conference? Host it in an open and inviting
>> country (here's a hint: Egypt is not it). In answer to your question:
>> yes. You may blame me for it all you want, and I will feel free to
>> point and laugh at you, and call you an arrogant jackass who can't
>> take the idea that the foundation can do wrong.
>>
>> Cut the "we" crap, and the generalizations. Speak for yourself
>> alone; you don't speak for anyone else.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dan
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2008, at 3:25 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> So who is terrorised? Who wants to sit at home and wait for a knock
>>> on the
>>> door. A knock on the door that may never come. You are not coming
>>> and yet
>>> you insist on determining for others what risk they take. It is
>>> clear to
>>> everyone who is going that you are afraid for us. Thank you for
>>> wishing us
>>> well. But please let us live our lives. Please leave it to the WMF
>>> to assess
>>> the situation and consider what needs to be done. Please let this
>>> information be private and take appropriate measures. But please let
>>> us not
>>> have a concentration camp in Alexandria, let us have a Wikimania
>>> that is
>>> inviting to its participants and to the journalists and other people
>>> that
>>> make Wikimania what it is; an open inviting conference.
>>>
>>> One question, can we blame you when there is no Wikimania this year?
>>> Are you
>>> willing to take this blame, this responsibility?
>>> Thanks,
>>>   GerardM
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> More tasteless than saying "If our conference goers die, we can  
>>>> spin
>>>> it so that they're martyrs and its a positive thing for us"? Pot,
>>>> kettle.... I like how nobody came out to say that Ray's offensive  
>>>> and
>>>> tasteless remark was out of line, but the minute it's something not
>>>> in
>>>> favor of Alexandria, suddenly "OMG THIS IS TASTELESS!".
>>>>
>>>> As for solid info, there is plenty of evidence showing that there
>>>> is a
>>>> heightened risk, namely several country's embassies and state
>>>> departments labeling travel in Egypt.....get this...."heightened
>>>> risk".
>>>>
>>>> If people see the warnings, and choose to dismiss them, like Ray,
>>>> that's fine. But that then puts the responsibility solely on them,
>>>> and
>>>> nobody else. For individual's that's one thing, but for that to  
>>>> be on
>>>> the foundation as a whole (namely, if something were to happen, the
>>>> foundation having "ignored the signs", the responsibility would be
>>>> squarely on them), is a cause for concern.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 5, 2008, at 2:58 PM, George Herbert wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dan, this is tasteless.  We still don't have any solid info or
>>>>> analysis that
>>>>> there's a heightened risk to be afraid of.
>>>>>
>>>>> -george
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Dan Rosenthal
>>>>> <swatjester at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, lets be thinking about how to spin the deaths of our
>>>>>> conference
>>>>>> goers as a "positive". I'm sure their families will be happy to
>>>>>> hear
>>>>>> that, especially if the foundation acted negligently in causing
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> death. That's something it absolutely should be worried about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Dan
>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2008, at 1:18 PM, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andrew Whitworth wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 5:55 PM, Lars Aronsson  
>>>>>>>> <lars at aronsson.se>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andrew Whitworth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A single murder, or a single rape, or a single instance of  
>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> other violent crime would have a massive chilling effect on
>>>>>>>>>> Wikimania, and possibly all of Wikimedia. We should never run
>>>>>>>>>> this risk, even if that means we have to abandon Wikimania
>>>>>>>>>> entirely.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think you are being ridiculous.  A single murder at
>>>>>>>>> Wikimania in
>>>>>>>>> Boston or Frankfurt wouldn't have this all-chilling effect,  
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> neither will a single murder in Alexandria.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You're saying that a murder of a prominent wikimedian at a
>>>>>>>> wikimania
>>>>>>>> wouldn't have significant negative consequences. I may not be
>>>>>>>> completely accurate here, but I doubt this possibility is
>>>>>>>> "rediculous".
>>>>>>> The negative consequences of having one of our own martyred  
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> turn people against us; it could certainly be spun into a
>>>>>>> positive.
>>>>>>> Ifg
>>>>>>> one of our people were the killer that would be a different
>>>>>>> matter.
>>>>>>> Generally, however, I'm prepared to relegate either scenario to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> far
>>>>>>> reaches of imagination.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ec
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> -george william herbert
>>>>> george.herbert at gmail.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> foundation-l mailing list
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>>>>
>>>>
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