[Foundation-l] Concern for the safety of Wikimedians at Wikimania in Alex...

Dan Rosenthal swatjester at gmail.com
Wed Mar 5 20:38:58 UTC 2008 

Hoi,

Who is this we you speak of Gerard? Are you so arrogant that you think  
you speak for every Wikimedian? You've seen first hand that there are  
quite a few people who share my opinion on this list. Do you speak for  
them too? Disagree with my opinions, but how dare you put words into  
my mouth: I've never told anyone here how to live their lives. You  
must be mistaking that for constructive criticism. You obviously are  
out of touch with what's going on because we can't just "leave it to  
the WMF to assess the situation": they weren't going to do so until we  
spoke up. Is that "not letting you live your lives?" How hypocritical  
is that statement. What about "Dan if you want to go to Wikimania, you  
can't be publicly jewish." "Mike, if you want to go to Wikimania, you  
can't be publicly gay".  Is that your impression of letting people  
live their own lives?

Or am I not letting you go to Wikimania if you so choose? The only way  
that would happen would be if the foundation actually agrees with me  
that, gosh, there may just be legitimate concerns after all, at which  
point, it becomes their decision. Feel free to continue with the  
hyperbole though, it's fun.

Invoking concentration camp images is both irrelevant and offensive,  
especially since we're talking about discrimination against Jews. You  
want an open and inviting conference? Host it in an open and inviting  
country (here's a hint: Egypt is not it). In answer to your question:  
yes. You may blame me for it all you want, and I will feel free to  
point and laugh at you, and call you an arrogant jackass who can't  
take the idea that the foundation can do wrong.

  Cut the "we" crap, and the generalizations. Speak for yourself  
alone; you don't speak for anyone else.

Thanks,
Dan

On Mar 5, 2008, at 3:25 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Hoi,
> So who is terrorised? Who wants to sit at home and wait for a knock  
> on the
> door. A knock on the door that may never come. You are not coming  
> and yet
> you insist on determining for others what risk they take. It is  
> clear to
> everyone who is going that you are afraid for us. Thank you for  
> wishing us
> well. But please let us live our lives. Please leave it to the WMF  
> to assess
> the situation and consider what needs to be done. Please let this
> information be private and take appropriate measures. But please let  
> us not
> have a concentration camp in Alexandria, let us have a Wikimania  
> that is
> inviting to its participants and to the journalists and other people  
> that
> make Wikimania what it is; an open inviting conference.
>
> One question, can we blame you when there is no Wikimania this year?  
> Are you
> willing to take this blame, this responsibility?
> Thanks,
>    GerardM
>
> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> More tasteless than saying "If our conference goers die, we can spin
>> it so that they're martyrs and its a positive thing for us"? Pot,
>> kettle.... I like how nobody came out to say that Ray's offensive and
>> tasteless remark was out of line, but the minute it's something not  
>> in
>> favor of Alexandria, suddenly "OMG THIS IS TASTELESS!".
>>
>> As for solid info, there is plenty of evidence showing that there  
>> is a
>> heightened risk, namely several country's embassies and state
>> departments labeling travel in Egypt.....get this...."heightened  
>> risk".
>>
>> If people see the warnings, and choose to dismiss them, like Ray,
>> that's fine. But that then puts the responsibility solely on them,  
>> and
>> nobody else. For individual's that's one thing, but for that to be on
>> the foundation as a whole (namely, if something were to happen, the
>> foundation having "ignored the signs", the responsibility would be
>> squarely on them), is a cause for concern.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2008, at 2:58 PM, George Herbert wrote:
>>
>>> Dan, this is tasteless.  We still don't have any solid info or
>>> analysis that
>>> there's a heightened risk to be afraid of.
>>>
>>> -george
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Dan Rosenthal
>>> <swatjester at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, lets be thinking about how to spin the deaths of our  
>>>> conference
>>>> goers as a "positive". I'm sure their families will be happy to  
>>>> hear
>>>> that, especially if the foundation acted negligently in causing  
>>>> that
>>>> death. That's something it absolutely should be worried about.
>>>>
>>>> -Dan
>>>> On Mar 5, 2008, at 1:18 PM, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Andrew Whitworth wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 5:55 PM, Lars Aronsson <lars at aronsson.se>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andrew Whitworth wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A single murder, or a single rape, or a single instance of any
>>>>>>>> other violent crime would have a massive chilling effect on
>>>>>>>> Wikimania, and possibly all of Wikimedia. We should never run
>>>>>>>> this risk, even if that means we have to abandon Wikimania
>>>>>>>> entirely.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you are being ridiculous.  A single murder at  
>>>>>>> Wikimania in
>>>>>>> Boston or Frankfurt wouldn't have this all-chilling effect, and
>>>>>>> neither will a single murder in Alexandria.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're saying that a murder of a prominent wikimedian at a
>>>>>> wikimania
>>>>>> wouldn't have significant negative consequences. I may not be
>>>>>> completely accurate here, but I doubt this possibility is
>>>>>> "rediculous".
>>>>> The negative consequences of having one of our own martyred would
>>>>> not
>>>>> turn people against us; it could certainly be spun into a  
>>>>> positive.
>>>>> Ifg
>>>>> one of our people were the killer that would be a different  
>>>>> matter.
>>>>> Generally, however, I'm prepared to relegate either scenario to  
>>>>> the
>>>>> far
>>>>> reaches of imagination.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ec
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> -george william herbert
>>> george.herbert at gmail.com
>>> _______________________________________________
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