[Foundation-l] Concern for the safety of Wikimedians at Wikimania in Alexandria.

Chad innocentkiller at gmail.com
Tue Mar 4 12:48:33 UTC 2008 

Re to Gerard:
True, and no one is saying to break local laws. However,
when local laws infringe on your basic human rights, we
need to consider if this is in fact a place we wish to be.

Also, in RE: to George Herbert.
Yes, it is a lot of vague unease, since we don't have all the
answers yet. Hopefully, we can find the answers and make
an informed decision and put our unease at rest.

-Chad

On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 4:47 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
>  You are wrong here as well. Alcohol is a hard drug. Like homosexuality it is
>  legal in most countries but not all. The way you are expected to handle your
>  liquor differs from country to country. I was at the station of Wuerzburg
>  last Saturday and FC Bayern fans boarded the same train, there were some 12
>  supporters and at least three crates of beer. This would not be permitted in
>  the Netherlands or the USA because of the age of some of these supporters.
>
>  The point I try to make is that you cannot assume that you are free to
>  behave in the same manner whereever you go. You may find other places
>  liberating or restricting but the key thing to appreciate is that your
>  freedom stops where the freedom of others starts. Where you are a guest, it
>  is best to be conscious of the differences to what you are accustomed to, it
>  is the polite thing to do. When you are not willing or able to allow for
>  these differences, you do well to stay where you feel at home.
>  Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
>
>
>  On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  > I think the main difference here is that drug use is illegal in almost
>  > every country, the Netherlands being an exception. Homosexual activity
>  > is decriminalized in almost all of the Americas and Europe as well as
>  > much of Asia (which is not part of the Western world, so there!).
>  >
>  > The way women are treated varies greatly among cultures as well, so
>  > I'm not going to say that women will be better or worse off in Egypt
>  > than in country X, Y, or Z.
>  >
>  > Mark
>  >
>  > On 04/03/2008, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > > Hoi,
>  > >  What is there to be offended at. When I go to the USA I can expect
>  > behaviour
>  > >  that is completely accepted in my home country to land me in jail. When
>  > I
>  > >  came into the Taipei airport the first message was that smugglers of
>  > drugs
>  > >  can expect the death penalty.
>  > >
>  > >  As I stated earlier, your freedom is limited by the freedom of others.
>  > When
>  > >  you feel offended by this, you can only stay home.
>  > >  Thanks,
>  > >     GerardM
>  > >
>  > >  NB I do not use drugs so crazy ineffectual measures against drugs do
>  > not
>  > >  threaten me.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 4:48 AM, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
>  > wrote:
>  > >
>  > >  > Yes, and I think Gerard's "When you insist on behaving in a manner
>  > >  > that is offensive to others your safety can not be guaranteed." is
>  > >  > perhaps putting it the wrong way. That statement certainly offended
>  > >  > me.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > On 03/03/2008, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > >  > > When the Wikimedia Foundation puts us in a situation that our mere
>  > >  > > existence is offensive to others, and our mere existence in a
>  > country
>  > >  > > endangers our safety, it's a good sign we should not be holding
>  > >  > > conferences there. Being openly jewish, gay, or a westernized woman
>  > is
>  > >  > > offensive to some in Egypt, and unless one is forced to subject
>  > >  > > themselves to coercive rules and limitations that, I should
>  > mention,
>  > >  > > fundamentally violate standard human rights, then their safety
>  > cannot
>  > >  > > be guaranteed.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > > I don't know how this isn't clear to you Gerard. When we have a
>  > >  > > situation where our conference attendee's sexual preferences,
>  > gender,
>  > >  > > religion, and birth country must hidden or denied, in order to
>  > assure
>  > >  > > their safety, we simply should NOT be hosting conferences there. It
>  > is
>  > >  > > an implicit statement that Wikimedia does not support human rights
>  > --
>  > >  > > the right to freedom of religion, freedom of nationality, freedom
>  > of
>  > >  > > sexual preference, and freedom from gender discrimination. It's
>  > >  > > absolutely unacceptable to say "Instead of admitting that we picked
>  > a
>  > >  > > stupid place to host a conference, we're going to stand by it and
>  > >  > > force our conference goers to choose between their safety, and
>  > their
>  > >  > > human rights." That's a fundamentally wrong thing for the Wikimedia
>  > >  > > Foundation to do, but it's precisely what they've been doing.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > > -Dan
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > > On Mar 3, 2008, at 6:09 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > > > In the end it is about freedom. The freedom that is available to
>  > you
>  > >  > > > is limited by the freedom available to others. When you insist on
>  > >  > > > behaving
>  > >  > > > in a manner that is offensive to others your safety can not be
>  > >  > > > guaranteed. The rights and the treatment that you take for
>  > granted
>  > >  > > > in your
>  > >  > > > normal environment is not necessarily what will be available in
>  > other
>  > >  > > > environments. This is rather elementary I would say.
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >
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>  > >  >
>  > >  > --
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