[Foundation-l] Concern for the safety of Wikimedians at Wikimania in Alexandria.

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
You are wrong here as well. Alcohol is a hard drug. Like homosexuality it is
legal in most countries but not all. The way you are expected to handle your
liquor differs from country to country. I was at the station of Wuerzburg
last Saturday and FC Bayern fans boarded the same train, there were some 12
supporters and at least three crates of beer. This would not be permitted in
the Netherlands or the USA because of the age of some of these supporters.

The point I try to make is that you cannot assume that you are free to
behave in the same manner whereever you go. You may find other places
liberating or restricting but the key thing to appreciate is that your
freedom stops where the freedom of others starts. Where you are a guest, it
is best to be conscious of the differences to what you are accustomed to, it
is the polite thing to do. When you are not willing or able to allow for
these differences, you do well to stay where you feel at home.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think the main difference here is that drug use is illegal in almost
> every country, the Netherlands being an exception. Homosexual activity
> is decriminalized in almost all of the Americas and Europe as well as
> much of Asia (which is not part of the Western world, so there!).
>
> The way women are treated varies greatly among cultures as well, so
> I'm not going to say that women will be better or worse off in Egypt
> than in country X, Y, or Z.
>
> Mark
>
> On 04/03/2008, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> >  What is there to be offended at. When I go to the USA I can expect
> behaviour
> >  that is completely accepted in my home country to land me in jail. When
> I
> >  came into the Taipei airport the first message was that smugglers of
> drugs
> >  can expect the death penalty.
> >
> >  As I stated earlier, your freedom is limited by the freedom of others.
> When
> >  you feel offended by this, you can only stay home.
> >  Thanks,
> >     GerardM
> >
> >  NB I do not use drugs so crazy ineffectual measures against drugs do
> not
> >  threaten me.
> >
> >
> >  On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 4:48 AM, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >  > Yes, and I think Gerard's "When you insist on behaving in a manner
> >  > that is offensive to others your safety can not be guaranteed." is
> >  > perhaps putting it the wrong way. That statement certainly offended
> >  > me.
> >  >
> >  > On 03/03/2008, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com> wrote:
> >  > > When the Wikimedia Foundation puts us in a situation that our mere
> >  > > existence is offensive to others, and our mere existence in a
> country
> >  > > endangers our safety, it's a good sign we should not be holding
> >  > > conferences there. Being openly jewish, gay, or a westernized woman
> is
> >  > > offensive to some in Egypt, and unless one is forced to subject
> >  > > themselves to coercive rules and limitations that, I should
> mention,
> >  > > fundamentally violate standard human rights, then their safety
> cannot
> >  > > be guaranteed.
> >  > >
> >  > > I don't know how this isn't clear to you Gerard. When we have a
> >  > > situation where our conference attendee's sexual preferences,
> gender,
> >  > > religion, and birth country must hidden or denied, in order to
> assure
> >  > > their safety, we simply should NOT be hosting conferences there. It
> is
> >  > > an implicit statement that Wikimedia does not support human rights
> --
> >  > > the right to freedom of religion, freedom of nationality, freedom
> of
> >  > > sexual preference, and freedom from gender discrimination. It's
> >  > > absolutely unacceptable to say "Instead of admitting that we picked
> a
> >  > > stupid place to host a conference, we're going to stand by it and
> >  > > force our conference goers to choose between their safety, and
> their
> >  > > human rights." That's a fundamentally wrong thing for the Wikimedia
> >  > > Foundation to do, but it's precisely what they've been doing.
> >  > >
> >  > > -Dan
> >  > >
> >  > > On Mar 3, 2008, at 6:09 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >  > >
> >  > > > In the end it is about freedom. The freedom that is available to
> you
> >  > > > is limited by the freedom available to others. When you insist on
> >  > > > behaving
> >  > > > in a manner that is offensive to others your safety can not be
> >  > > > guaranteed. The rights and the treatment that you take for
> granted
> >  > > > in your
> >  > > > normal environment is not necessarily what will be available in
> other
> >  > > > environments. This is rather elementary I would say.
> >  > >
> >  > >
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> >  >
> >  >
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