[Foundation-l] Introduction to the internal workings of thelanguage subcommittee

Sun Apr 13 21:09:06 UTC 2008

Hoi,
As you know my language is not English. Hoi, is just a greeting, there is
not much to it. If anything you can consider it a token of me not being
English. If you want to appreciate me with your English eyes, then you will
get the wrong end of the stick. This is not dissimilar in understanding
English in the first place by those for whom English is not the mother
tongue.

You have some things wrong. First of all, I am appreciative of the Latin
Wikipedia and I think the ISO has it wrong where they call Latin an extinct
language. This is however not a problem for me because the existence of
those projects that existed before the start of the Language Committee are
outside its remit. Second, Scots is a recognised language. If it were to be
requested as a new language, it would be granted the "eligible" status
without a doubt. Third, if you want me to concede to something, you first
have to convince me. When some say that I am always saying the same thing,
they may deduce that they have not been convincing.

At this time the Language Committee is rather unforgiving against
constructed languages and reconstructed languages. Reconstructed languages
are in my opinion worse then constructed languages. I will not repeat the
arguments. For your information I am the one arguing for the approval of
constructed languages. I could accept reconstructed languages when they are
appropriately tagged as not being the language they are based on. When this
is instantly dismissed, then I expect that the consequences are understood;
I am not interested in seeing a reconstructed old Greek Wikipedia started.

PS Dutch spoken in Flanders is in many ways different from Dutch spoken in
the Netherlands.
PS I find it amusing that people cannot handle it when I stay polite :)

Thanks,
     GerardM

On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 10:35 PM, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil at wikinewsie.org>
wrote:

> Thanks for this little insight into what goes on.
>
> I suppose one of the things that's got me riled at the moment is Gerard is
> so damn polite, yet never appears to concede anything. Another issue is
> (without knowing the history) I am baffled as to why sco.wikipedia.org is
> allowed to continue yet Latin is getting beaten senseless and denied.
>
> For Gerard, a little bit of language you may not be aware of... "Hoi" is
> not
> generally considered a polite greeting. I don't know what your native
> tongue
> is, but for the vast majority of English speakers its use is generally
> found
> in "Hoi You!" where it is a prelude to berating or otherwise giving
> someone
> a piece of your mind.
>
>
> Brian McNeil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: foundation-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org
> [mailto:foundation-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jesse
> Martin
> (Pathoschild)
> Sent: 13 April 2008 22:21
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: [Foundation-l] Introduction to the internal workings of
> thelanguage
> subcommittee
>
> Hello,
>
> Several people in the recent discussions, most recently Brian and
> Dovi, have asked about how the subcommittee reaches decisions and
> whether they can join to present their viewpoint. Here's a brief view
> into the wonderful world of the language subcommittee. Being a
> productive member of the subcommittee requires a very large investment
> of continuous time and effort.
>
> The language subcommittee operates by consensus. This means that most
> proposed decisions are discussed at length, and many tend to be
> compromises. Virtually every aspect of the approval policy is a
> compromise between very different positions in the subcommittee.
> Although it's possible to make a decision over the objections of one
> member, this requires lengthy discussion to attempt a consensus, and a
> complete consensus of the rest of the participating members. This is a
> very time-consuming and stressful process, so that a single member can
> block a decision for a long time. However, it ensures that all
> viewpoints are heard and fairly represented.
>
> The members of the subcommittee hold some significantly different
> opinions on several issues, and have significantly different
> priorities. As such, monthly discussion frequently outstrips many
> public mailing lists, and is sometimes heated. Discussion in January
> alone totaled some 20000 words.
>
> Many discussions can be very technical, particularly those concerning
> language code classification and technical accommodations for
> particular languages (like sign languages). This requires research and
> a good understanding of the subject at hand, and is a further drain on
> time and effort.
>
> Furthermore, after investing so much of your free time and effort on
> this, you must then defend yourself from public criticism for being
> slow, lazy, corrupt, arbitrary, and a sekrit cabal. When you're done
> with that, you then spend more of your free time answering requesters'
> questions and queries.
>
> New members are chosen by consensus as well. Interested users tend to
> desist when I explain how much fun it will be. A number of our members
> are inactive; I want to ensure that new members know what they're
> getting into, and won't freak out and vanish when they're approved.
>
> All this is why GerardM said "When the only reason to become a member
> of the LC is to argue a case, it makes little difference ;we can
> discuss on this list as effectively". Being a member of the
> subcommittee involves more than simply arguing your favourite subject.
>
> If all that sounds fun to you, you're welcome to apply.
>
> --
> Yours cordially,
> Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Dovi Jacobs <dovijacobs at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >  >"Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
> the
> >  >sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment." The best way to inform
> is
> by
> >  >using the mother tongue of people.
> >
> >  Mother tongues are the best, but providing information in one of
> >  the great classical languages of Western civilization is also
> >  a lovely idea for sharing the "sum of all knowledge." Probably
> >  more useful than a few of the current European languages that
> >  are hardly spoken as first languages anymore (not that I have
> >  any objection to those either).
> >
> >  You do not need "native speakers" (mother tongue) to set up a
> >  project. I had the pleasure of getting the Hebrew Wikisource
> >  up and running, currently with many active contributors
> >  and over 4,000 texts. Hebrew is not my "native" (mother) tongue
> >  but I can contribute on a professional level. Same might be
> >  said for contributors in many languages. What you need are
> >  active, competent contributors, not native speakers or "mother"
> >  tongue.
> >
> >  Gerard, you repeat your arguments about neologisms at length,
> >  adding nothing new, and then conclude:
> >
> >  >The arguments the language committee uses are clear. They are
> published
> and
> >  >they are objective. You may not like them, but they are the arguments
> we
> >  >use. When people have issues, the arguments have to be convincing to
> make a
> >  >difference.
> >
> >  No, Gerard. Your arguments are indeed published, but they are
> >  not objective. It is *you* who have to convince the community
> >  at large that your arguments are correct.
> >
> >  >We use the ISO-639-3 as a reference. You are
> >  >welcome to apply for a label for reconstructed Old Greek.
> >
> >  No need, "grc" will do just fine!
> >
> >  I would like to add that I have no personal interest whatsoever
> >  in grc.wikipedia.org (my Greek is rudimentary). But I do have great
> >  respect for the fine contributions by others that I saw. And
> >  I think that the way the arguments have been made and the process
> >  has been handled need improvement.
> >
> >  I again repeat my request for information about the language
> >  committee. I would like to see more voices and greater diversity
> >  of opinion on it. How is its membership determined?
> >
> >  Dovi
> >
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 5:10 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> >  In the language committee things are done by consensus. If you want to
> >  become a member of the committee, you will find that there are things
> that
> >  are at best a compromise. When the only reason to become a member of
> the
> LC
> >  is to argue a case, it makes little difference ;we can discuss on this
> list
> >  as effectively.
> >
> >  If you are interested in doing the work that we do in the LC, you will
> want
> >  to know about all the esoterica that are part of understanding how
> languages
> >  are dealt with technically, its different standards and their
> interaction.
> >  If you do not care for that, you can implement the procedures as they
> are.
> >  Thanks,
> >      GerardM
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 9:41 AM, Brian McNeil
> <brian.mcneil at wikinewsie.org> wrote:
> > Congratulations on responding without answering any of the points or
> >  questions raised... Again.
> >
> >  This, Gerard, is you, and you alone. I am not aware of the language
> >  committee appointing you as a spokesperson and you do a fine
> impersonation
> >  of Ian Paisley as "Dr. No". I've never seen you concede a point or
> accept
> >  anyone other than yourself has a valid argument. You assert that the
> basis
> >  for your position is the unstated guidelines to which the language
> committee
> >  allegedly works.
> >
> >  There was one clear and unambiguous question in the email you responded
> to;
> >  it came in two parts, and was a repeat of an earlier query. It would be
> most
> >  civilised to answer the question and not assert that the discussion
> should
> >  simply continue here. The option you offer is a complete and utter
> waste
> of
> >  time for everyone else on the list. I am none the wiser about how the
> >  language committee operates than I was nearly a year ago when I signed
> up,
> >  but by golly! Have I had to read a lot of messages from you that tell
> other
> >  people they're not qualified to give input.
> >
> >
> >  Brian McNeil
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>