[Foundation-l] Sassarese and Sardinian

[Debbie Garside]

Ilario wrote:

> The problem is generated because it's not clear what is
> language and what is dialect.

If ever you solve that one let me and the rest of the world's linguists know
:-)

I think you should stop trying to classify linguistic entities and look at
each in  its own right.  Once ISO 639-6 is published, when we receive a new
registration request, a number of questions will be asked that will need to
be answered prior to the requested entity being passed for inclusion within
ISO 639-6. The most relevant of these are:

What are the closest related entities?
What is the difference between the new entity and it's closest relations?

In considering these questions you may reasonably have your answer.  The
questions regarding previously created Wikis should be tackled as secondary.

It is for the language committee to decide whether the differences warrant a
new wiki/code - ISO standards can only serve as guidance and the ISO 639 JAC
go through much the same process as the WikiMedia Language Committee (I
think).  If the language committee feel that there is enough evidence for
the entity to be considered separately then the ISO 639-3 RA should be
approached.  If they fail to issue a code then the next step is to approach
IETF-Languages; who generally will not have a problem issuing once the ISO
639 JAC have refused (assuming enough evidence of the entity is presented).

Best wishes

Debbie





> -----Original Message-----
> From: foundation-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org
> [mailto:foundation-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf
> Of Ilario Valdelli
> Sent: 10 September 2007 13:33
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Cc: wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Sassarese and Sardinian
>
> Sardinian is a collection of different dialects spoken in Sardinia.
>
> The environment is similar to Romansh (which is a collection
> of different languages as Surmiran, Sursilvan etc.) with the
> difference that the super-language Romansh is officially
> recognized and has got a grammar and a dictionary.
>
> The problem is generated because it's not clear what is
> language and what is dialect.
>
> Using dialect in some environment like Europa you could have
> differences between two closest town. The nuances are very
> strong and the language is not stable (there differences
> during the years and influences).
>
> The Lumbard (lmo.wikipedia.org) for example has got hundred
> different dialects and not a superlanguage officially
> recognized, and two different speakers of two lumbard dialect
> are not completely understandable each other.
>
> Ilario
>
> On 9/10/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > There is a Wikipedia in the Sardinian
> > language<http://sc.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A0gina_printzipale>.
> > It uses the sc ISO-639-1 code. What was known as Sardinian
> became srd
> > in the ISO-639-2. In the ISO-639-3 it was recognised as a
> > macrolanguage<http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#M>;
> > practically what was called Sardinian was split into four
> > languages<http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=srd>
> > .
> >
> > The Italian government has officially recognised the Sardinian
> > language or the "Limba Sarda Comune". This is in essence a
> constructed
> > language as it tries to make one language out of the four
> "dialects".
> > One of the effects has been that some people prevent others from
> > writing in one of the four languages on the sc.wikpedia.
> >
> > The language committee of the Wikimedia Foundation has a request to
> > approve a new language; one of the Sardinian languages,
> Sassarese with ISO code sdc.
> >
> > There are two problems to deal with:
> >
> >    - The "Limba Sarda Comune" is not recognised as a language
> >    - The proponents of the "Limba Sarda Comune" reserve the
> > sc.wikipediafor their language
> >
> > This issue is political. The first thing that I understand
> when you go
> > to the official website
> <http://www.sardegnacultura.it/linguasarda/>
> > is the notion of identity and indeed, to create one
> Sardinian identity
> > it would be instrumental to have a unifying language.
> However, the map
> > of the Sardinian languages
> >
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lingue_di_Sardegna_mod.gif
> > is clear, the island is divided in four.
> >
> > Given that the language committee has as one of its rules that
> > political arguments are not accepted, there are a few
> conclusions that we should make.
> >
> >    1. Sassarese can have a conditional approval
> >    2. We urge the proponents of the Limba Sarda Comune to
> ask for the
> >    recognition of this newly constructed language from ISO.
> >
> > I have had a chat with Debbie
> >
> Garside<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Advisory_board#Debbie_Gars
> > ide>about all this, and I understand that it is necessary
> to apply for
> > an
> > ISO-639-3 code before an IANA language code is likely to be
> approved.
> > At least fifty published works in the Limba Sarda Comune
> will be required.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
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> >
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