[Foundation-l] [Wikichix-l] Moderating an open list

[Puppy]

Anthere wrote:
> I knew this subject will end up a huge troll, I knew it....
>
>
> Puppy wrote:
>   
>> I would have preferred that not be done precipitously, without allowing 
>> time for discussion. This is what, a two-day-old list, and a few men 
>> have bitched about reverse discrimination, so oh too bad, let's toss the 
>> women off the island??? "Peace of the community???' Bullshit. Several 
>> men have supported the idea of a closed list. At least one woman (me) 
>> has suggested opening the list. What about the peace of mind of women 
>> contributors, to have a safe place to discuss issues? Oh, that's a 
>> "women's topic" so its irrelevant? 
>>     
> `
> For the record, I do not appreciate the implication of your email saying 
> that because the choice is made not to host the list on Wikimedia 
> servers for the peace of our community, that necessarily implies that 
> the women concerns are irrelevant. Since I originally agreed for the 
> opening of that list, and later asked Angela to move it somewhere else, 
> I tend to take your comment very personnally. I understand you are 
> upset, but I still do not appreciate that.
>
> So, we have two options. Either a closed list. Or a heavily moderated list.
>
> I am not very happy with a closed list, restricted to women. I am not 
> very supportive of positive discrimination. Men and women are different, 
> with different concerns, different sensibilities, different interest, 
> different approaches to things. I have never been of the opinion we 
> should try to be "equal" in everything. I do not think we can be. We are 
> complementing each other. Two parts of a complete piece. We overlap. But 
> we will never be equal. Trying to push things toward an artificial 
> equality will not change that. We need input of both parts and imho, to 
> realise both parts are necessary in the debate. In this, I think the 
> list should not be restricted to women.
>
> When the proposal was made to open and heavily moderate the list, Angela 
> comment was quite straight. Very heavy moderation is a good idea. Now, 
> who does it ? Being myself the (very light) moderator of about half a 
> dozen lists, I echo her question. Who will take in charge the heavy 
> moderation ? If you really want women to be safe, you need to approve 
> requests for joining, which means in many cases, you need to know the 
> people. First trap. Either you accept anonymous membership by default 
> and hope all will go well, or you accept only those you know. Which 
> again is discrimination.
> If you want the women to feel real secure, you need to moderate posts 
> *before* they are posted. Second trap. Are you willing to check all 
> emails before they are posted ?
> If you are the moderator, how do you judge which comments should be 
> removed and which one kept ? if I wanted to feel *safe*, I would 
> probably delete several emails on this list from the past days, and at 
> least a dozen from wikien on the discussion 2 weeks ago. Do you feel 
> ready to do so for a list on wikimedia servers ? Because as soon as you 
> get the job, you'll have people complaining that you removed this 
> message and not that one. And then, in the name of democratie and 
> equality, you'll find yourself voting on whether to remove a message. or 
> not.
>
> I have a memory of such an event on the french wiki pump, maybe a year 
> ago. A clueless visitor had left a honest question. And one of our admin 
> left a very sexist comment/answer there; I was deeply shocked. Very 
> deeply, in particular because the visitor... was just a visitor.
> I removed the comment. It was immediately restored and I was stormed for 
> several days for having removed the comment. Which was considered 
> censorship. Are you ready to face screams and accusations of censorship 
> for having removed a sexist comment on a wiki ? Are you ready to face 
> screams and accusation of censorship for removing a message containing a 
> sexist comment on the list ?
>
> Dunno about you, but me, no more. I choose my fights. I prefer working 
> as best as possible in the Foundation to show that women can perfectly 
> do that. That as long as our specific needs are acknowledged and taken 
> into account (which goes from not bugging us too much when we have our 
> periods, to paying nanny costs of a volunteer mom), we can do just as 
> best, if not better.
> Wikipedia is plagued by sexism, but at least, it has shown it is an 
> environment where we have a chance to grow and show our own strengths.
>
> If you really want that list on wikimedia servers, here is what I 
> recommand you do
> 1) make it an open list for men and women
> 2) get the agreement from Eloquence and Jimbo
> 3) take care of the moderation yourself, do not expect Angela to do it :-)
>
> If you do that yourself, you are a winner.
>
> anthere
>
>
> No. I don't think so. Its a pity this
>   
>> was not discussed in any greater detail, rather than being (like so many 
>> of the concerns which *led* to this list) being summarily dismissed. I 
>> also find it telling that the /women's/ concerns were ridiculed and 
>> dismissed as invalid, yet the /men's/ concerns led to almost immediate 
>> action. How sadly typical.
>>
>>     
<snip>
I apologize for being unclear. I meant that the posts which protested 
the list were largely dismissing any concerns as irrelevant. Secondly, I 
fail to see how you, who are clearly trying to do the best you can in a 
divisive situation, were personally hurt by anything I said. I apologize 
both for whatever I said which was at fault, and for failing to read my 
own posts clearly enough to be able to recognize the offending content. 
Thirdly, are you saying I was trolling?
-kc-