Hi Treasurers and other finance people,
I realize that we had this discussion some months ago about accounting software. I just wanted to follow up by letting you know that Cascadia decided to go with Xero as we start. Your advice was helpful and I greatly appreciate it.
I hope to meet many of you at the Wikimedia Conference in Germany this year.
Regards,
Pine (now Executive Director for Cascadia Wikimedians User Group) On Aug 20, 2014 4:12 AM, "Richard Symonds" richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.uk wrote:
Hi Pine,
I started off doing the accounts at WMUK several years ago and looked at a fair few different systems, including open source.
Initially we used Gnucash, I believe, but because no-one else used it - including our auditors - it was not very useful when we needed to create year end accounts. I also considered CiviCRM after viewing a talk from the Swedish chapter in 2012. However, the talk was not encouraging - CiviCRM needs a *lot *of work to be useable as an accounting system. I would not therefore recommend Gnucash or CiviCRM or any other open source system: you will find it almost impossible to find an accountant who uses them, and also almost impossible to find a CiviCRM developer who is also an accountant! Your auditors will not know how to use the data and will not have the programs to access it, so in the end you will have to pay extra for the "free" software.
In short: open source programs are good for small charity accounts, but the moment you start hiring staff (of any sort), or have fixed assets or non-cash donations, the system does not scale and as a result you will incur large overheads trying to get it to work. You might run into a problem with CiviCRM if you need to generate invoices for a conference you run in three or four years time - will your system be able to handle it, or will you need to upgrade everything at much greater cost?
We also looked at Quickbooks, Sage, and a few others. In the end, we picked Sage - not because it was cheap, or because it was ethical - but because it is the UK standard and practically all UK accountants know how to use it. It has a huge support network, and it is scalable from a self-employed person up to an organisation with many thousands of employees. Sage is not used much in the USA though, so Quickbooks may be a better idea for you.
My advice to you would be:
- Plan for the future - ten year's time. Your solution needs to be
scalable with little fuss.
- Use something that has a proven track record - don't got for anything
like a startup, because you need it supported in future and you can't take the risk.
- Cloud-based is good, but the Treasurer really needs to understand
what's happening - things should go through him where possible.
- Don't be afraid to spend money if money needs to be spent.
- Don't be afraid to ask the WMF directly for their advice. They know
their stuff and it'd be good if your accounts were run on a similar system to theirs - cheaper in the long run, and you've got someone to turn to if it all breaks.
I hope this helps! Feel free to drop me an email if you have any more specific questions.
Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
On 20 August 2014 10:57, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
Hi Pine,
you may want to evaluate CiviCRM. It is not perfect but supports accounting (rather than just recording donations as before) about a year. The advantage of CiviCRM is the fact that it integrates membership management, mailings, donors management and that it can be used centrally by all the committee members.
The setup and customization is not so easy with CiviCRM but there are plenty of people in the movement who gathered some experience with that.
/Manuel
-- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi Pine,
That's great to hear, I was really pleased with how Xero worked for our organisation and I hope it's just as good for you. If you (or any other user group) need a hand with it, please feel free to drop me a line as I've a few years experience with it now.
Cheers, Craig Franklin
On 16 February 2015 at 15:59, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Treasurers and other finance people,
I realize that we had this discussion some months ago about accounting software. I just wanted to follow up by letting you know that Cascadia decided to go with Xero as we start. Your advice was helpful and I greatly appreciate it.
I hope to meet many of you at the Wikimedia Conference in Germany this year.
Regards,
Pine (now Executive Director for Cascadia Wikimedians User Group) On Aug 20, 2014 4:12 AM, "Richard Symonds" < richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:
Hi Pine,
I started off doing the accounts at WMUK several years ago and looked at a fair few different systems, including open source.
Initially we used Gnucash, I believe, but because no-one else used it - including our auditors - it was not very useful when we needed to create year end accounts. I also considered CiviCRM after viewing a talk from the Swedish chapter in 2012. However, the talk was not encouraging - CiviCRM needs a *lot *of work to be useable as an accounting system. I would not therefore recommend Gnucash or CiviCRM or any other open source system: you will find it almost impossible to find an accountant who uses them, and also almost impossible to find a CiviCRM developer who is also an accountant! Your auditors will not know how to use the data and will not have the programs to access it, so in the end you will have to pay extra for the "free" software.
In short: open source programs are good for small charity accounts, but the moment you start hiring staff (of any sort), or have fixed assets or non-cash donations, the system does not scale and as a result you will incur large overheads trying to get it to work. You might run into a problem with CiviCRM if you need to generate invoices for a conference you run in three or four years time - will your system be able to handle it, or will you need to upgrade everything at much greater cost?
We also looked at Quickbooks, Sage, and a few others. In the end, we picked Sage - not because it was cheap, or because it was ethical - but because it is the UK standard and practically all UK accountants know how to use it. It has a huge support network, and it is scalable from a self-employed person up to an organisation with many thousands of employees. Sage is not used much in the USA though, so Quickbooks may be a better idea for you.
My advice to you would be:
- Plan for the future - ten year's time. Your solution needs to be
scalable with little fuss.
- Use something that has a proven track record - don't got for anything
like a startup, because you need it supported in future and you can't take the risk.
- Cloud-based is good, but the Treasurer really needs to understand
what's happening - things should go through him where possible.
- Don't be afraid to spend money if money needs to be spent.
- Don't be afraid to ask the WMF directly for their advice. They know
their stuff and it'd be good if your accounts were run on a similar system to theirs - cheaper in the long run, and you've got someone to turn to if it all breaks.
I hope this helps! Feel free to drop me an email if you have any more specific questions.
Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
On 20 August 2014 10:57, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
Hi Pine,
you may want to evaluate CiviCRM. It is not perfect but supports accounting (rather than just recording donations as before) about a year. The advantage of CiviCRM is the fact that it integrates membership management, mailings, donors management and that it can be used centrally by all the committee members.
The setup and customization is not so easy with CiviCRM but there are plenty of people in the movement who gathered some experience with that.
/Manuel
-- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Treasurers mailing list Treasurers@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/treasurers
Hello,
For information, Wikimédia France uses Ciel http://www.ciel.com, a (proprietary) software owned by Sage group, but I see Ciel is only distributed in France, Belgium, and Luxembourg. We have to use some "standard" software, even if proprietary, because it’s what our accountant, chartered accountant*, and statutory auditor** know, and it’s easier to exchange files.
* expert-comptable ** commissaire aux comptes
Sébastien/Seb35 (deputy treasurer in WMFR)
Le Mon, 16 Feb 2015 11:36:00 +0100, Craig Franklin cfranklin@halonetwork.net a écrit:
Hi Pine,
That's great to hear, I was really pleased with how Xero worked for our organisation and I hope it's just as good for you. If you (or any other user group) need a hand with it, please feel free to drop me a line as I've a few years experience with it now.
Cheers, Craig Franklin
On 16 February 2015 at 15:59, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Treasurers and other finance people,
I realize that we had this discussion some months ago about accounting software. I just wanted to follow up by letting you know that Cascadia decided to go with Xero as we start. Your advice was helpful and I greatly appreciate it.
I hope to meet many of you at the Wikimedia Conference in Germany this year.
Regards,
Pine (now Executive Director for Cascadia Wikimedians User Group) On Aug 20, 2014 4:12 AM, "Richard Symonds" < richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:
Hi Pine,
I started off doing the accounts at WMUK several years ago and looked at a fair few different systems, including open source.
Initially we used Gnucash, I believe, but because no-one else used it - including our auditors - it was not very useful when we needed to create year end accounts. I also considered CiviCRM after viewing a talk from the Swedish chapter in 2012. However, the talk was not encouraging - CiviCRM needs a *lot *of work to be useable as an accounting system. I would not therefore recommend Gnucash or CiviCRM or any other open source system: you will find it almost impossible to find an accountant who uses them, and also almost impossible to find a CiviCRM developer who is also an accountant! Your auditors will not know how to use the data and will not have the programs to access it, so in the end you will have to pay extra for the "free" software.
In short: open source programs are good for small charity accounts, but the moment you start hiring staff (of any sort), or have fixed assets or non-cash donations, the system does not scale and as a result you will incur large overheads trying to get it to work. You might run into a problem with CiviCRM if you need to generate invoices for a conference you run in three or four years time - will your system be able to handle it, or will you need to upgrade everything at much greater cost?
We also looked at Quickbooks, Sage, and a few others. In the end, we picked Sage - not because it was cheap, or because it was ethical - but because it is the UK standard and practically all UK accountants know how to use it. It has a huge support network, and it is scalable from a self-employed person up to an organisation with many thousands of employees. Sage is not used much in the USA though, so Quickbooks may be a better idea for you.
My advice to you would be:
- Plan for the future - ten year's time. Your solution needs to be
scalable with little fuss.
- Use something that has a proven track record - don't got for
anything like a startup, because you need it supported in future and you can't take the risk.
- Cloud-based is good, but the Treasurer really needs to understand
what's happening - things should go through him where possible.
- Don't be afraid to spend money if money needs to be spent.
- Don't be afraid to ask the WMF directly for their advice. They
know their stuff and it'd be good if your accounts were run on a similar system to theirs - cheaper in the long run, and you've got someone to turn to if it all breaks.
I hope this helps! Feel free to drop me an email if you have any more specific questions.
Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
On 20 August 2014 10:57, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
Hi Pine,
you may want to evaluate CiviCRM. It is not perfect but supports accounting (rather than just recording donations as before) about a year. The advantage of CiviCRM is the fact that it integrates membership management, mailings, donors management and that it can be used centrally by all the committee members.
The setup and customization is not so easy with CiviCRM but there are plenty of people in the movement who gathered some experience with
that.
/Manuel
-- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Treasurers mailing list Treasurers@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/treasurers
treasurers@lists.wikimedia.org