hi,
how much sense does it make to *compare donations and spending against the population and the economic power of a country*? we already have such numbers? i tried to put some together exemplary for 2011 fundraiser, with 2012 budgets, comparing germany, india, united states. but i am quite unsure if such a table makes sense ...
for the spending, it seems that *twice as much money is spent in the united states, than in germany*. india is far, far, away. but, i _think_ this might be true for most of the countries. just to make it clear, if somebody living in the u.s. travels to india, it would be counted as an expense in the united states, not india.
for fundraising, in *countries like germany and switzerland 50% - 100% more is donated than in the united states*, depending if one counts GDP or population. people in india, despite having a much bigger GDP than germany, do not donate a lot of money to the movement.
*de*
*in*
*us*
80
1210
310
population, mio
5400
190
14400
donations, thousand
3089
4469
15065
gdp, billion
3640
50
28000
spending, thousand (local people, living in the country)
38
4
48
gdp/capita, thousand
*68*
*0.16*
*46*
*donation/capita*
*1.75*
*0.04*
*0.96*
*donation/gdp*
*45*
*0.04*
*90*
*spending/capita*
*1.18*
*0.01*
*1.86*
*spending/gdp*
references: * 2011 donations: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah1QkDyemcHbdHNFZEs0ZEgxWHF2cVN... * budget wmde 2012: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Wirtschaftsplan_2012_WMDE... * the above table in google docs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amy296SGLxdvdHVSNkZoSGFFV2dmOXB...
rupert.
Hi Rupert
Interesting table. I think a simpler outlook would be just to look at GDP (PPP) per capita instead of GPD alone, your GDP/capita figure alludes to what I mean. Here's a simpler way to consider this-
Unites states - $48,147 (7th) Germany - $37,935 (17th) India - $3,703 (129th)
They accordingly rank at quiet differential levels, as per this list[1].
This also brings into the Penn effect whereby the PPP deviation in India, allows a large majority in rural India to survive below the subsistence levels by most developed countries. According to the 2005 World Bank Survey, 41.6% of India lives below the International Poverty line of $1.25 a day, and 75.6% below $2 a day (PPP). Do note, some of these figures have been challenged lately by government data. This also creates huge disparities in wealth distribution within the country, with a higher Gini coeffecient.
There are a whole host of variables why a comparison between the 3 is not as easy. It also tends to veer into the territory of non-quantifiable factors, like impression of a cause, cultural practices, and so on. Our own donation infrastructure and visibility within India, is the single largest immediate factor to lower collections. I don't think they have remotely reached their sustainable long-term levels, though we might be approaching those levels in Germany and United states, it might be too early to consider trends from these figures.
A more worthy comparison would be between US and Germany, or within other affluent European economies, where PPP is comparable. There is a clear trend of higher donation per capita in Germany in comparison to US. This might be because of a larger trend towards donation or better visibility and awareness of the projects within the same donor pool.
Regards Theo
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 6:37 PM, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.comwrote:
hi,
how much sense does it make to *compare donations and spending against the population and the economic power of a country*? we already have such numbers? i tried to put some together exemplary for 2011 fundraiser, with 2012 budgets, comparing germany, india, united states. but i am quite unsure if such a table makes sense ...
for the spending, it seems that *twice as much money is spent in the united states, than in germany*. india is far, far, away. but, i _think_ this might be true for most of the countries. just to make it clear, if somebody living in the u.s. travels to india, it would be counted as an expense in the united states, not india.
for fundraising, in *countries like germany and switzerland 50% - 100% more is donated than in the united states*, depending if one counts GDP or population. people in india, despite having a much bigger GDP than germany, do not donate a lot of money to the movement.
*de**in*
*us*
80
1210
310
population, mio
5400
190
14400
donations, thousand
3089
4469
15065
gdp, billion
3640
50
28000
spending, thousand (local people, living in the country)
38
4
48
gdp/capita, thousand
*68*
*0.16*
*46*
*donation/capita*
*1.75*
*0.04*
*0.96*
*donation/gdp*
*45*
*0.04*
*90*
*spending/capita*
*1.18*
*0.01*
*1.86*
*spending/gdp*
references:
- 2011 donations:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah1QkDyemcHbdHNFZEs0ZEgxWHF2cVN...
- budget wmde 2012:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Wirtschaftsplan_2012_WMDE...
- the above table in google docs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amy296SGLxdvdHVSNkZoSGFFV2dmOXB...
rupert.
Treasurers mailing list Treasurers@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/treasurers
This is a fascinating area and I agree with Theo that making meaningful comparisons is difficult.
Here is an interesting way to look at a comparison between Germany and India. As I understand it, the top 80 million people in India have about the same amount of income/wealth as the Germans (of whom there are about 80 million). It's just that in India there more than a billion more people beyond that who live on a lot less.
While such comparisons are interesting and might be useful in terms of at least some internal motivations, I think there's an emotional risk, since issues around money can be so emotional.
Still, if we're going to do them, because they are fun and interesting, one other factor to include would be per capita readership. I suspect that most of the difference between Germany and the US in terms of donation levels can be explained by the higher per capita readership of Wikipedia in German.
--Jimbo
From the top of my head, about 23 Million people from Germany use the
Wikimedia sites every months, so a little more than 1/4 of all Germans.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Pavel Richter Vorstand
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tel.: +49 - 30 - 219 158 260 Twitter: @pavel
2012/3/5 Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia-inc.com:
This is a fascinating area and I agree with Theo that making meaningful comparisons is difficult.
Here is an interesting way to look at a comparison between Germany and India. As I understand it, the top 80 million people in India have about the same amount of income/wealth as the Germans (of whom there are about 80 million). It's just that in India there more than a billion more people beyond that who live on a lot less.
While such comparisons are interesting and might be useful in terms of at least some internal motivations, I think there's an emotional risk, since issues around money can be so emotional.
Still, if we're going to do them, because they are fun and interesting, one other factor to include would be per capita readership. I suspect that most of the difference between Germany and the US in terms of donation levels can be explained by the higher per capita readership of Wikipedia in German.
--Jimbo
Treasurers mailing list Treasurers@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/treasurers
To cite the comScore stats I sent around a week ago, they estimate the following for January:
- in Germany, 53% of internet users read our sites (27 million people) on average 5.8 times a month. - in India, 36% of internet users read our sites (17 million people) on average 3.7 times a month.
That suggests total internet users are only slightly higher in Germany (27/.53 or 51 million people) than in India (17/.36 or 47 million people). Interesting that a totally different data source backs up Jimmy's offhand idea that raw data for wealth (or internet usage in this case) are similar between Germany and India.
NB -- comScore is trying to make some almost impossibly difficult estimates here, but they're the only ones who really try to do for the entire internet and across multiple countries. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Stu/comScore_data_on_Wikimedia for a discussion of strengths/weaknesses.
-s
On Mar 5, 2012, at 6:04 AM, Pavel Richter wrote:
From the top of my head, about 23 Million people from Germany use the Wikimedia sites every months, so a little more than 1/4 of all Germans.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Pavel Richter Vorstand
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tel.: +49 - 30 - 219 158 260 Twitter: @pavel
2012/3/5 Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia-inc.com:
This is a fascinating area and I agree with Theo that making meaningful comparisons is difficult.
Here is an interesting way to look at a comparison between Germany and India. As I understand it, the top 80 million people in India have about the same amount of income/wealth as the Germans (of whom there are about 80 million). It's just that in India there more than a billion more people beyond that who live on a lot less.
While such comparisons are interesting and might be useful in terms of at least some internal motivations, I think there's an emotional risk, since issues around money can be so emotional.
Still, if we're going to do them, because they are fun and interesting, one other factor to include would be per capita readership. I suspect that most of the difference between Germany and the US in terms of donation levels can be explained by the higher per capita readership of Wikipedia in German.
--Jimbo
Treasurers mailing list Treasurers@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/treasurers
Treasurers mailing list Treasurers@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/treasurers
the number of german (from germany, not german language) internet users might closer to 40 mio, than 50 mio, according to a study by the sinus institute in heidelberg, paid by the german institute for trust and security in the internet (divsi).
the study says that 40% of germans above 14 are "digital outsiders", they live without internet. 20% are "digital immigrants", they use the internet only for purposes where they have an immediate advantage, like book a travel. otherwise they have some reservations. 40% are "digital natives".
suppose these percentages are correct, we can use the age pyramid to find that 70 mio people are above 14. 60% of them know about the internet, i.e. 42 mio. 53 % should then be approximately the 23 mio pavel got out of the top of his head. if one uses the same percentage and counts in the 1.5 (out of 5) mio swiss, 2.3 (out of 8) mio austrians, south tirol people, etc. then one gets 27 mio reading the german wikipedia, as stu wrote below.
i find it fascinating how these numbers match ... one could think they all used the same source, hehe.
links: * sinus study at divsi: https://www.divsi.de/sites/default/files/presse/docs/DIVSI-Milieu-Studie_Kur... * age pyramid germany: http://www.destatis.de/bevoelkerungspyramide/ * sinus: http://sinus-institut.de * dvsi: http://divsi.de
rupert.
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 16:23, Stuart West stu@wikimedia.org wrote:
To cite the comScore stats I sent around a week ago, they estimate the following for January:
- in Germany, 53% of internet users read our sites (27 million people) on
average 5.8 times a month.
- in India, 36% of internet users read our sites (17 million people) on
average 3.7 times a month.
That suggests total internet users are only slightly higher in Germany (27/.53 or 51 million people) than in India (17/.36 or 47 million people). Interesting that a totally different data source backs up Jimmy's offhand idea that raw data for wealth (or internet usage in this case) are similar between Germany and India.
NB -- comScore is trying to make some almost impossibly difficult estimates here, but they're the only ones who really try to do for the entire internet and across multiple countries. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Stu/comScore_data_on_Wikimedia%C2%A0for a discussion of strengths/weaknesses.
-s
On Mar 5, 2012, at 6:04 AM, Pavel Richter wrote:
From the top of my head, about 23 Million people from Germany use the Wikimedia sites every months, so a little more than 1/4 of all Germans.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Pavel Richter Vorstand
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tel.: +49 - 30 - 219 158 260 Twitter: @pavel
2012/3/5 Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia-inc.com:
This is a fascinating area and I agree with Theo that making meaningful
comparisons is difficult.
Here is an interesting way to look at a comparison between Germany and
India. As I understand it, the top 80 million people in India have about
the same amount of income/wealth as the Germans (of whom there are about 80
million). It's just that in India there more than a billion more people
beyond that who live on a lot less.
While such comparisons are interesting and might be useful in terms of at
least some internal motivations, I think there's an emotional risk, since
issues around money can be so emotional.
Still, if we're going to do them, because they are fun and interesting, one
other factor to include would be per capita readership. I suspect that most
of the difference between Germany and the US in terms of donation levels can
be explained by the higher per capita readership of Wikipedia in German.
--Jimbo
Treasurers mailing list
Treasurers@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/treasurers
Treasurers mailing list Treasurers@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/treasurers
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That's an interesting question, Rupert. I've thought a bit about it and it's related to Chris Keating's thread at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_happens_when_the_money_tree_stops_growin....
To do this analysis and draw meaningful conclusions, there are so many variables you would need to control, including:
- population of internet users (not a lot of good data available though ITU's are ok) - overlap of a internet user language skills with a high quality language-version of Wikipedia (maybe less important) - cultural predisposition toward charitable giving (very difficult to quantify) - penetration of payment systems that might work online (e.g. credit cards, paypal, direct transfer; anything but cash)
If you could control for all of those, maybe it's possible to the relationship between Wikimedia donations and GDP/capita to compare the effectiveness of messaging / fundraising in different countries.
A better way to do the broader analysis might be to use comScore data on Unique Visitors to projects in different countries (they make estimates for about 40 countries IIRC) to look at fundraising per visitor to the projects. Of course you'd still need to control for the above factors, and it doesn't address the broader question of how well we are all reaching the broader population of internet users in each country. You could do this analysis more broadly looking at Erik Zachte's page view data by country (e.g. http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportPageViewsPerCountryOv...) but it's a bit tougher to explain when you use a Page View concept rather than a visitor.
A smaller more doable analysis might be to compare year over year performance for a single country. So if you could get good data on internet users (or in countries where it's relatively stable now), it might be a useful way to track performance of fundraising from one year to the next.
As much as I would love to, i don't have time to play with this data now. If anyone wants to, I did a quick data dump from comScore for January with their key data points for all the projects across the countries and regions they report. See attached.
-s
On Feb 26, 2012, at 5:07 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:
hi,
how much sense does it make to compare donations and spending against the population and the economic power of a country? we already have such numbers? i tried to put some together exemplary for 2011 fundraiser, with 2012 budgets, comparing germany, india, united states. but i am quite unsure if such a table makes sense ...
for the spending, it seems that twice as much money is spent in the united states, than in germany. india is far, far, away. but, i _think_ this might be true for most of the countries. just to make it clear, if somebody living in the u.s. travels to india, it would be counted as an expense in the united states, not india.
for fundraising, in countries like germany and switzerland 50% - 100% more is donated than in the united states, depending if one counts GDP or population. people in india, despite having a much bigger GDP than germany, do not donate a lot of money to the movement.
de
in
us
80
1210
310
population, mio
5400
190
14400
donations, thousand
3089
4469
15065
gdp, billion
3640
50
28000
spending, thousand (local people, living in the country)
38
4
48
gdp/capita, thousand
68
0.16
46
donation/capita
1.75
0.04
0.96
donation/gdp
45
0.04
90
spending/capita
1.18
0.01
1.86
spending/gdp
references:
- 2011 donations: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah1QkDyemcHbdHNFZEs0ZEgxWHF2cVN...
- budget wmde 2012: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Wirtschaftsplan_2012_WMDE...
- the above table in google docs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amy296SGLxdvdHVSNkZoSGFFV2dmOXB...
rupert. _______________________________________________ Treasurers mailing list Treasurers@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/treasurers
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