Hi all
during wikimedia germany's brithday party yesterday, I was asked to look into improving the communication between toolserver folks and the wiki communities using the toolserver. We have become an important part of their infrastructure, and when things break, they notice - but often don't know who to ask about it.
So, I would like to propose a few things to improve this situation.
1) There should be a short description of the toolserver, with the relevant links, in the project namespace of each wiki that us the toolserver significantly. That page should be maintained by the local community of course, but I think it would be ideal if a toolserver user who is also a member of that community would help with that, or even start the page. I will do this for the german wikipedia soon.
2) we, the toolserver admins, should use the toolserver blog more to communicate what's going on with the TS. I guess several of the messages I posted here lately should have gone to the blog too. Maybe blog posts could be forwarded to toolserver-l automatically? posting the same thing to several places is annoying...
3) we should incurage people to describe their tools on the toolserver wiki, kind of like the description pages for extension on mediawiki.org. Perhaps we should have a guideline for this?
The idea is to promote some more information about who we are, what we do, and how the toolserver works. And we should also help people to find the right person to contact when things break. What do you think?
-- daniel
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Daniel Kinzler daniel@brightbyte.dewrote:
Hi all
The idea is to promote some more information about who we are, what we do, and how the toolserver works. And we should also help people to find the right person to contact when things breakhttp://wikiatic.com/wikisearch/search?q=person%20to%20contact%20when%20things%20break. What do you think?
-- daniel
I'm the "tech beat" editor for the English Wikipedia's Signpost newspaper. In the weekly tech reports, we can mention things going on with the toolserver when I'm aware of them. Being aware of things generally means reading the mailing list and blogs. (I have added the toolserver blog to http://open.wikiblogplanet.com/)
The Signpost also runs special stories on occassion for tech topics. I would be happy to run something about the toolserver. If you would answer some questions, I could turn the answers into a signpost article. The article could take an "interview" format like the WikiProject reports. (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-05-25/WikiPro...) or I can turn it into another format (especially if others give input).
Anyway, here are some questions:
* What is the toolserver? (e.g., it's not just one server but several...)
* What is the purpose of the toolserver? / what we do?
* How does the toolserver operate? (e.g. it has replicated copies of the wiki databases, minus the full text, to allow people to develop tools. The servers are located in Amsterdam)
* Who runs it? / who are we? / how is it funded?
* What is your role with the toolserver?
* How did the toolserver get started?
* How do Wikipedian's get accounts on the toolserver? What are the requirements and approval process?
* If one gets an account, what are the responsibilities? I know accounts had to be reconfirmed, are there resource limits such as disk space limits for each user? or what?
* Who is the person to contact when things break?
* We already are aware of the map toolserver project, but along with that, some other new hardware was recently ordered? What's the purpose of the new hardware?
* What's coming in the pipeline (in the future)?
* Anything else people should know about the toolserver?
These could be answered via e-mail, or on my wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aude/Toolserver
If I can get answers within the next day, this could run in tomorrow's edition of the Signpost. Otherwise, it can run next week or whenever.
-Aude
Toolserver-l mailing list Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l
Aude schrieb:
I'm the "tech beat" editor for the English Wikipedia's Signpost newspaper. In the weekly tech reports, we can mention things going on with the toolserver when I'm aware of them. Being aware of things generally means reading the mailing list and blogs. (I have added the toolserver blog to http://open.wikiblogplanet.com/)
The Signpost also runs special stories on occassion for tech topics. I would be happy to run something about the toolserver. If you would answer some questions, I could turn the answers into a signpost article. The article could take an "interview" format like the WikiProject reports. (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-05-25/WikiPro...) or I can turn it into another format (especially if others give input).
Great Idea! I'll try to answer the questions below, maybe River can add more info. Or anyone else, for that matter, I'm sure I'll forget something important.
I'm not quite sure though if the toolserver blog should be on the planet... raising awareness is definitly good. On the other hand, status reports like "replication failed, will fix tomorrow" is not so helpful in the aggregated feed. But I guess we could change it to a filtered stream when people complain.
Anyway, here are some questions:
- What is the toolserver? (e.g., it's not just one server but several...)
The Toolserver, or more accurately, the Toolserver cluster, is a project by Wikimedia Germany that allows interested programmers to work with a live copy of the wiki databases.
- What is the purpose of the toolserver? / what we do?
The Toolserver is used mainly to provide specialized web based tools to the wiki communities, but also to run bots and similar services. The Toolserver is also open to researchers that want to study wikimedia's projects.
- How does the toolserver operate? (e.g. it has replicated copies of the
wiki databases, minus the full text, to allow people to develop tools. The servers are located in Amsterdam)
The Toolserver cluster, is located in Amsterdam, has several types of machines. Maily, there are three:
* the database servers, which contain a live copy of all the wiki databases - however without the full article text. Article text is stored in compressed blocks on a special cluster. There is a copy of this in Amsterdam, but it is not accessible directly to toolserver users. The main reason for this is that these compressed blocks may contain private data.
* then there is the web server, where users can provide web based tools. This is what the wiki communities usually see.
* and there are the login servers, machines where programmers can run bots and other "offline" scripts, or run commands directly.
- Who runs it? / who are we? / how is it funded?
The Toolserver is run by Wikimedia Germany, it is funded entirely from donations. The Wikimedia Foundation helps with hosting the machines in Amsterdam.
- What is your role with the toolserver?
I am an employee of Wikimedia Germany, and I'm responsible for planning the toolserver budget, among other things. I also have root access, and can approve new accounts, but I'm a lousy system administrator. So mainly my role is planning and organizing.
I am of course also a toolserver user and provide several tools, the most well known of wich are probably CatScan and CheckUsage.
- How did the toolserver get started?
To be honest, I don't know the details of the very beginning. I only joined when it was already up for a couple of months. But I believe that there was some frustration by people who had the skill to develop helpful tools for the wiki communities, but did not get access to the main server cluster, for security reasons. So the idea arose to create a place for such people to work with the data.
- How do Wikipedian's get accounts on the toolserver? What are the
requirements and approval process?
Wikipedians (or anyone else, actually) can request an account by simply stating what you want to do there. The requests are reviewed by DaB (and sometimes by me), and if the project falls into the Toolserver's scope (which is: supporting Wikimedia and, more recently, OpenStreetMap projects), seems technically feasible and complies to our terms of use, the request is granted.
Until now, account requests have been handled at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Toolserver/New_accounts. However, we are currently reworking the process, to make it more swift and more transparent.
The terms of use for the toolserver are defined by https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Rules, the conditions for account approval are at https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Account_approval_policy/en.
- If one gets an account, what are the responsibilities? I know
accounts had to be reconfirmed, are there resource limits such as disk space limits for each user? or what?
It's the user's responsibility to comply to the rules, that is, to do no evil. There are no hard limits on resources, users are asked to be considerate. Heavy tasks that slow down the system may be killed by an administrator. Generally, we try to address problems on a case by case basis, directly with the user.
- Who is the person to contact when things break?
That depends on what is broken. We have over a hundred active users, many of which have several tools in diverse states of completeness or repair. Generally, when something is broken, contact the author of that something - Toolserver administrators usually can not fix it.
The matter is different when the Toolserver as such has a problem - for example, when one of the servers is down. In that case, write an email to ts-admins@toolserver.org. You can also find us on IRC, in the channel #wikimedia-toolserver.
- We already are aware of the map toolserver project, but along with
that, some other new hardware was recently ordered? What's the purpose of the new hardware?
The latest hardware order included five servers, three of them for the Toolserver cluster:
* we are replacing our oldest database server, which has been constantly overloaded recently.
* we are putting user data (home directories) onto a new machine and move other things around a bit. In the end, there will be a second login server, for running bots and the like.
* and last but not least: the map toolserver, a place for the OpenStreetMap community to develop exciting new projects.
In addition, two servers are provided for integrating "live" interactive maps ion wikipedia articles, based on OpenStreetMap data.
- What's coming in the pipeline (in the future)?
We are mainly working on the reliability of the toolserver - for instance, we hope to have two copies of every wiki database in the future, so tools using that data can keep running even when one system fails.
Generally, we are trying to make the Toolserver cluster a mature part of the Wikimedia landscape.
- Anything else people should know about the toolserver?
We should all say thanks to River, our senior system administrator, for keeping the Toolserver running!
-- daniel
Daniel Kinzler schrieb:
- Who is the person to contact when things break?
That depends on what is broken. We have over a hundred active users, many of which have several tools in diverse states of completeness or repair. Generally, when something is broken, contact the author of that something - Toolserver administrators usually can not fix it.
The matter is different when the Toolserver as such has a problem - for example, when one of the servers is down. In that case, write an email to ts-admins@toolserver.org. You can also find us on IRC, in the channel #wikimedia-toolserver.
Daniel forgot to mention there's also a bugtrack at https://jira.toolserver.org/ for toolserver tools. It can be used as a mean to contact the author in the above procedure.
Platonides schrieb:
Daniel forgot to mention there's also a bugtrack at https://jira.toolserver.org/ for toolserver tools. It can be used as a mean to contact the author in the above procedure.
Indeed, thanks for mentioning it.
-- daniel
This is most helpful. I can work on getting this ready for next week's Signpost.
-Aude
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 5:59 AM, Daniel Kinzler daniel@brightbyte.dewrote:
Aude schrieb:
I'm the "tech beat" editor for the English Wikipedia's Signpost newspaper. In the weekly tech reports, we can mention things going on with the toolserver when I'm aware of them. Being aware of things generally means reading the mailing list and blogs. (I have added the toolserver blog to http://open.wikiblogplanet.com/)
The Signpost also runs special stories on occassion for tech topics. I would be happy to run something about the toolserver. If you would answer some questions, I could turn the answers into a signpost article. The article could take an "interview" format like the WikiProject reports. (e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-05-25/WikiPro... )
or I can turn it into another format (especially if others give input).
Great Idea! I'll try to answer the questions below, maybe River can add more info. Or anyone else, for that matter, I'm sure I'll forget something important.
I'm not quite sure though if the toolserver blog should be on the planet... raising awareness is definitly good. On the other hand, status reports like "replication failed, will fix tomorrow" is not so helpful in the aggregated feed. But I guess we could change it to a filtered stream when people complain.
Anyway, here are some questions:
- What is the toolserver? (e.g., it's not just one server but several...)
The Toolserver, or more accurately, the Toolserver cluster, is a project by Wikimedia Germany that allows interested programmers to work with a live copy of the wiki databases.
- What is the purpose of the toolserver? / what we do?
The Toolserver is used mainly to provide specialized web based tools to the wiki communities, but also to run bots and similar services. The Toolserver is also open to researchers that want to study wikimedia's projects.
- How does the toolserver operate? (e.g. it has replicated copies of the
wiki databases, minus the full text, to allow people to develop tools. The servers are located in Amsterdam)
The Toolserver cluster, is located in Amsterdam, has several types of machines. Maily, there are three:
- the database servers, which contain a live copy of all the wiki databases
however without the full article text. Article text is stored in compressed blocks on a special cluster. There is a copy of this in Amsterdam, but it is not accessible directly to toolserver users. The main reason for this is that these compressed blocks may contain private data.
- then there is the web server, where users can provide web based tools.
This is what the wiki communities usually see.
- and there are the login servers, machines where programmers can run bots
and other "offline" scripts, or run commands directly.
- Who runs it? / who are we? / how is it funded?
The Toolserver is run by Wikimedia Germany, it is funded entirely from donations. The Wikimedia Foundation helps with hosting the machines in Amsterdam.
- What is your role with the toolserver?
I am an employee of Wikimedia Germany, and I'm responsible for planning the toolserver budget, among other things. I also have root access, and can approve new accounts, but I'm a lousy system administrator. So mainly my role is planning and organizing.
I am of course also a toolserver user and provide several tools, the most well known of wich are probably CatScan and CheckUsage.
- How did the toolserver get started?
To be honest, I don't know the details of the very beginning. I only joined when it was already up for a couple of months. But I believe that there was some frustration by people who had the skill to develop helpful tools for the wiki communities, but did not get access to the main server cluster, for security reasons. So the idea arose to create a place for such people to work with the data.
- How do Wikipedian's get accounts on the toolserver? What are the
requirements and approval process?
Wikipedians (or anyone else, actually) can request an account by simply stating what you want to do there. The requests are reviewed by DaB (and sometimes by me), and if the project falls into the Toolserver's scope (which is: supporting Wikimedia and, more recently, OpenStreetMap projects), seems technically feasible and complies to our terms of use, the request is granted.
Until now, account requests have been handled at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Toolserver/New_accounts. However, we are currently reworking the process, to make it more swift and more transparent.
The terms of use for the toolserver are defined by https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Rules, the conditions for account approval are at https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Account_approval_policy/en.
- If one gets an account, what are the responsibilities? I know
accounts had to be reconfirmed, are there resource limits such as disk space limits for each user? or what?
It's the user's responsibility to comply to the rules, that is, to do no evil. There are no hard limits on resources, users are asked to be considerate. Heavy tasks that slow down the system may be killed by an administrator. Generally, we try to address problems on a case by case basis, directly with the user.
- Who is the person to contact when things break?
That depends on what is broken. We have over a hundred active users, many of which have several tools in diverse states of completeness or repair. Generally, when something is broken, contact the author of that something - Toolserver administrators usually can not fix it.
The matter is different when the Toolserver as such has a problem - for example, when one of the servers is down. In that case, write an email to ts-admins@toolserver.org. You can also find us on IRC, in the channel #wikimedia-toolserver.
- We already are aware of the map toolserver project, but along with
that, some other new hardware was recently ordered? What's the purpose of the new hardware?
The latest hardware order included five servers, three of them for the Toolserver cluster:
- we are replacing our oldest database server, which has been constantly
overloaded recently.
- we are putting user data (home directories) onto a new machine and move
other things around a bit. In the end, there will be a second login server, for running bots and the like.
- and last but not least: the map toolserver, a place for the OpenStreetMap
community to develop exciting new projects.
In addition, two servers are provided for integrating "live" interactive maps ion wikipedia articles, based on OpenStreetMap data.
- What's coming in the pipeline (in the future)?
We are mainly working on the reliability of the toolserver - for instance, we hope to have two copies of every wiki database in the future, so tools using that data can keep running even when one system fails.
Generally, we are trying to make the Toolserver cluster a mature part of the Wikimedia landscape.
- Anything else people should know about the toolserver?
We should all say thanks to River, our senior system administrator, for keeping the Toolserver running!
-- daniel
Toolserver-l mailing list Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l
Aude schrieb:
This is most helpful. I can work on getting this ready for next week's Signpost.
great!
The matter is different when the Toolserver as such has a problem - for example, when one of the servers is down. In that case, write an email to ts-admins@toolserver.org <mailto:ts-admins@toolserver.org>. You can also find us on IRC, in the channel #wikimedia-toolserver.
Hm, I think I have to correct myself there. If a server is down, chances are we know it - please don't write mails when a server is down :) But for there may be more subtle problems with the toolserver in general, which we might not notice right away. In that case, do write us.
-- daniel
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Daniel Kinzler:
I'm not quite sure though if the toolserver blog should be on the planet...
it already is.
On the other hand, status reports like "replication failed, will fix tomorrow" is not so helpful in the aggregated feed.
i don't know if that belongs on the blog; i intended it for organisational issues more than technical. we do have a mailing list already...
The Toolserver, or more accurately, the Toolserver cluster, is a project by Wikimedia Germany
with assistance from Wikimedia France (ZWS).
The Toolserver cluster, is located in Amsterdam
and one machine in Tampa.
I believe that there was some frustration by people who had the skill to develop helpful tools for the wiki communities, but did not get access to the main server cluster, for security reasons. So the idea arose to create a place for such people to work with the data.
it's interesting that the Toolserver turned out quite differently than we initially expected; i had hoped to create a community where people would work together to create useful tools, but instead we have isolated users who create their own tools (or in some cases, 10 copies of the same tool) and rarely work together. it's a shame; i think the former would be much more useful than what we have now...
- If one gets an account, what are the responsibilities? I know
accounts had to be reconfirmed, are there resource limits such as disk space limits for each user? or what?
It's the user's responsibility to comply to the rules, that is, to do no evil. There are no hard limits on resources, users are asked to be considerate.
we do have a hard limit on memory use, which is 1GB per user. (because we often found users would consume all the available memory, whereupon the server would crash.)
- river.
River Tarnell schrieb:
Daniel Kinzler:
I'm not quite sure though if the toolserver blog should be on the planet...
it already is.
Right. I was wondering if it should be.
On the other hand, status reports like "replication failed, will fix tomorrow" is not so helpful in the aggregated feed.
i don't know if that belongs on the blog; i intended it for organisational issues more than technical. we do have a mailing list already...
Yes, which is what toolserver users read. But we have an increasing need to inform "ordinary" weiki users about what'S going on. Because they are using the tools as part of normal site operation. The blog would be an easy< way of doing that, I think.
The Toolserver, or more accurately, the Toolserver cluster, is a project by Wikimedia Germany
with assistance from Wikimedia France (ZWS).
True. And we are trying to make it easier for other chapters to support us. It's a bit tricky tax-wise, i'm told.
The Toolserver cluster, is located in Amsterdam
and one machine in Tampa.
Indeed. And as dutch people insist, the cluster is no longer in Amsterdam at all. It's in Haarlem, about 10km west of Amsterdam :)
I believe that there was some frustration by people who had the skill to develop helpful tools for the wiki communities, but did not get access to the main server cluster, for security reasons. So the idea arose to create a place for such people to work with the data.
it's interesting that the Toolserver turned out quite differently than we initially expected; i had hoped to create a community where people would work together to create useful tools, but instead we have isolated users who create their own tools (or in some cases, 10 copies of the same tool) and rarely work together. it's a shame; i think the former would be much more useful than what we have now...
Increasing cooperation would be cool. One thing that might help is to promote a "toolbox", that is, a shared library of utilities to be used and maintained by everyone.
I suppose we should also rethink our permission model for svn repositories. Without a shared repository, cooperation is much harder.
- If one gets an account, what are the responsibilities? I know
accounts had to be reconfirmed, are there resource limits such as disk space limits for each user? or what?
It's the user's responsibility to comply to the rules, that is, to do no evil. There are no hard limits on resources, users are asked to be considerate.
we do have a hard limit on memory use, which is 1GB per user. (because we often found users would consume all the available memory, whereupon the server would crash.)
Ha, good to know. That's how sucky a system admin I am :)
-- daniel
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Daniel Kinzler daniel@brightbyte.dewrote:
River Tarnell schrieb:
On the other hand, status reports like "replication failed, will fix tomorrow" is not so helpful in the aggregated feed.
i don't know if that belongs on the blog; i intended it for
organisational
issues more than technical. we do have a mailing list already...
Yes, which is what toolserver users read. But we have an increasing need to inform "ordinary" weiki users about what'S going on. Because they are using the tools as part of normal site operation. The blog would be an easy< way of doing that, I think.
Tag the planet-relevant posts with a specific tag and leave the tech-info
stuff without this tag. this way the Planet shoulda be able to display only stuff which matters while giving interested people a possibility to see whats going on except searching some ML.
Marco
2009/6/15 Daniel Kinzler daniel@brightbyte.de:
River Tarnell schrieb:
Daniel Kinzler:
I'm not quite sure though if the toolserver blog should be on the planet...
it already is.
Right. I was wondering if it should be.
On the other hand, status reports like "replication failed, will fix tomorrow" is not so helpful in the aggregated feed.
i don't know if that belongs on the blog; i intended it for organisational issues more than technical. we do have a mailing list already...
Yes, which is what toolserver users read. But we have an increasing need to inform "ordinary" weiki users about what'S going on. Because they are using the tools as part of normal site operation. The blog would be an easy< way of doing that, I think.
The Toolserver, or more accurately, the Toolserver cluster, is a project by Wikimedia Germany
with assistance from Wikimedia France (ZWS).
True. And we are trying to make it easier for other chapters to support us. It's a bit tricky tax-wise, i'm told.
The Toolserver cluster, is located in Amsterdam
and one machine in Tampa.
Indeed. And as dutch people insist, the cluster is no longer in Amsterdam at all. It's in Haarlem, about 10km west of Amsterdam :)
I believe that there was some frustration by people who had the skill to develop helpful tools for the wiki communities, but did not get access to the main server cluster, for security reasons. So the idea arose to create a place for such people to work with the data.
it's interesting that the Toolserver turned out quite differently than we initially expected; i had hoped to create a community where people would work together to create useful tools, but instead we have isolated users who create their own tools (or in some cases, 10 copies of the same tool) and rarely work together. it's a shame; i think the former would be much more useful than what we have now...
Increasing cooperation would be cool. One thing that might help is to promote a "toolbox", that is, a shared library of utilities to be used and maintained by everyone.
Yes I think we need to promote opening up tools somewhow. Most of my tools are intended to be useful to others and improvable to others but I'm often disappointed that nobody lends a hand. Partly I guess they don't know about my tools and partly they don't know how to lend a hand.
I suppose we should also rethink our permission model for svn repositories. Without a shared repository, cooperation is much harder.
In my case I don't even seem to have a working svn repository any more. I used to work on one of my projects a year or two ago, took a wiki break, then things were changed and I haven't been able to use svn again since despite filing a report on Jira.
I really want my code to be seen by others so they can point out ineficciences and such.
- If one gets an account, what are the responsibilities? I know
accounts had to be reconfirmed, are there resource limits such as disk space limits for each user? or what?
It's the user's responsibility to comply to the rules, that is, to do no evil. There are no hard limits on resources, users are asked to be considerate.
we do have a hard limit on memory use, which is 1GB per user. (because we often found users would consume all the available memory, whereupon the server would crash.)
Do tools get signalled when they use too much memory? Or just killed?
Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)
Ha, good to know. That's how sucky a system admin I am :)
-- daniel
Toolserver-l mailing list Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l
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Andrew Dunbar:
Do tools get signalled when they use too much memory? Or just killed?
yes, a signal is the only way to kill a process. they will be sent SIGKILL.
- river.
2009/6/15 River Tarnell river@loreley.flyingparchment.org.uk:
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Andrew Dunbar:
Do tools get signalled when they use too much memory? Or just killed?
yes, a signal is the only way to kill a process. they will be sent SIGKILL.
But what about sending some other kind of warning signal first to give them a chance to free up some memory. I know two of my projects could support it.
Andrew Dunbar (hippietrail)
- river. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (HP-UX)
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Toolserver-l mailing list Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Daniel Kinzlerdaniel@brightbyte.de wrote:
it's interesting that the Toolserver turned out quite differently than we initially expected; i had hoped to create a community where people would work together to create useful tools, but instead we have isolated users who create their own tools (or in some cases, 10 copies of the same tool) and rarely work together. it's a shame; i think the former would be much more useful than what we have now...
Increasing cooperation would be cool. One thing that might help is to promote a "toolbox", that is, a shared library of utilities to be used and maintained by everyone.
I suppose we should also rethink our permission model for svn repositories. Without a shared repository, cooperation is much harder.
I think we should have a shared repository that is used by default. What is now the case is that every user has its own repository, which optionally can be shared. What should improve cooperation is a general toolserver repo which can be committed into by all toolserver users. It's a bit more the wiki principle.
Bryan
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Bryan Tong Minh:
What should improve cooperation is a general toolserver repo which can be committed into by all toolserver users. It's a bit more the wiki principle.
i don't think allowing anyone to commit malicious code to any other user's tools by default is the wiki principle. that's more like the "please compromise my account" principle.
- river.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:26 PM, River Tarnellriver@loreley.flyingparchment.org.uk wrote:
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Bryan Tong Minh:
What should improve cooperation is a general toolserver repo which can be committed into by all toolserver users. It's a bit more the wiki principle.
i don't think allowing anyone to commit malicious code to any other user's tools by default is the wiki principle. that's more like the "please compromise my account" principle.
The "svn up" is still the responsibility of the user running the tool.
Bryan
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Bryan Tong Minh:
The "svn up" is still the responsibility of the user running the tool.
sure, and in real life, users will just svn up and deploy immediately, without reviewing every commit. people are lazy. (you could say that's the user's fault, but i'm inclined to err on the side of "secure by default".)
- river.
Il giorno 16/giu/09, alle ore 13:26, River Tarnell ha scritto:
Bryan Tong Minh:
What should improve cooperation is a general toolserver repo which can be committed into by all toolserver users. It's a bit more the wiki principle.
i don't think allowing anyone to commit malicious code to any other user's tools by default is the wiki principle. that's more like the "please compromise my account" principle.
- river.
Nothing prevents us to create repos on request for specific users (not all users), doesn't it?
"I'm Outlaw Pete, I'm Outlaw Pete, Can you hear me?" Pietrodn powerpdn@gmail.com
Pietrodn schrieb:
Il giorno 16/giu/09, alle ore 13:26, River Tarnell ha scritto:
Bryan Tong Minh:
What should improve cooperation is a general toolserver repo which can be committed into by all toolserver users. It's a bit more the wiki principle.
i don't think allowing anyone to commit malicious code to any other user's tools by default is the wiki principle. that's more like the "please compromise my account" principle.
- river.
Nothing prevents us to create repos on request for specific users (not all users), doesn't it?
Yes, "project repositories" would be a simple and obvious solution, though a bit inconvenient. It would also be cool if users could simply allow iother users to commit. Right now, they have to ask an admin about it. But maybe all we need to do is advertize the possibility a bit more.
-- daniel
River Tarnell schreef:
i don't think allowing anyone to commit malicious code to any other user's tools by default is the wiki principle. that's more like the "please compromise my account" principle.
I guess that would be an instant ban for the committing user, right?
Maarten
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 12:25, Daniel Kinzlerdaniel@brightbyte.de wrote:
Hi all
during wikimedia germany's brithday party yesterday, I was asked to look into improving the communication between toolserver folks and the wiki communities using the toolserver. We have become an important part of their infrastructure, and when things break, they notice - but often don't know who to ask about it.
Are you talking about toolserver breaking as a whole or individual tools breaking?
The first can indeed be covered by blogs/signpost/Aude's interview. But what when individual tools break? Which ones are important enough to try and keep running (even when people leave).
henna
But what when individual tools break? Which ones are important enough to try and keep running (even when people leave).
Wasn't that the point of the stable server? Having the all important tools on a stable server, and with at least two developers. So if someone leaves the tool doesn't die.
- Chris
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Finne Boonenhennar@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 12:25, Daniel Kinzlerdaniel@brightbyte.de wrote:
Hi all
during wikimedia germany's brithday party yesterday, I was asked to look into improving the communication between toolserver folks and the wiki communities using the toolserver. We have become an important part of their infrastructure, and when things break, they notice - but often don't know who to ask about it.
Are you talking about toolserver breaking as a whole or individual tools breaking?
The first can indeed be covered by blogs/signpost/Aude's interview. But what when individual tools break? Which ones are important enough to try and keep running (even when people leave).
henna
-- "Maybe you knew early on that your track went from point A to B, but unlike you I wasn't given a map at birth!" Alyssa, "Chasing Amy"
Toolserver-l mailing list Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l
Christopher Grant schrieb:
But what when individual tools break? Which ones are important enough to try and keep running (even when people leave).
Wasn't that the point of the stable server? Having the all important tools on a stable server, and with at least two developers. So if someone leaves the tool doesn't die.
Indeed. Though sadly, it isn't taken up very well. I'm no exception: i have several tools which should go to stable (CheckUsage being the most prominent I guess), but the codebase is so terrible, I hate to impose it on anyone :)
better ways to making tools more stable is of course also an important topic.
-- daniel
Finne Boonen schrieb:
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 12:25, Daniel Kinzlerdaniel@brightbyte.de wrote:
Hi all
during wikimedia germany's brithday party yesterday, I was asked to look into improving the communication between toolserver folks and the wiki communities using the toolserver. We have become an important part of their infrastructure, and when things break, they notice - but often don't know who to ask about it.
Are you talking about toolserver breaking as a whole or individual tools breaking?
The first can indeed be covered by blogs/signpost/Aude's interview. But what when individual tools break? Which ones are important enough to try and keep running (even when people leave).
Making people understand the difference would be a fist step. And making it easier to find out who the author of a tool is and how to contact him/her would also help, I think.
-- daniel
Il giorno 14/giu/09, alle ore 12:25, Daniel Kinzler ha scritto:
Hi all
during wikimedia germany's brithday party yesterday, I was asked to look into improving the communication between toolserver folks and the wiki communities using the toolserver. We have become an important part of their infrastructure, and when things break, they notice - but often don't know who to ask about it.
So, I would like to propose a few things to improve this situation.
- There should be a short description of the toolserver, with the
relevant links, in the project namespace of each wiki that us the toolserver significantly. That page should be maintained by the local community of course, but I think it would be ideal if a toolserver user who is also a member of that community would help with that, or even start the page. I will do this for the german wikipedia soon.
I've just written a description of the Toolserver on the Italian Wikipedia: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Toolserver
"I'm Outlaw Pete, I'm Outlaw Pete, Can you hear me?" Pietrodn powerpdn@gmail.com
Is there a 'standard' description page (in English) to be translated to other languages? (this will make the mission much easier for everybody)
2009/6/15 Pietrodn powerpdn@gmail.com:
Il giorno 14/giu/09, alle ore 12:25, Daniel Kinzler ha scritto:
Hi all
during wikimedia germany's brithday party yesterday, I was asked to look into improving the communication between toolserver folks and the wiki communities using the toolserver. We have become an important part of their infrastructure, and when things break, they notice - but often don't know who to ask about it.
So, I would like to propose a few things to improve this situation.
- There should be a short description of the toolserver, with the
relevant links, in the project namespace of each wiki that us the toolserver significantly. That page should be maintained by the local community of course, but I think it would be ideal if a toolserver user who is also a member of that community would help with that, or even start the page. I will do this for the german wikipedia soon.
I've just written a description of the Toolserver on the Italian Wikipedia: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Toolserver
"I'm Outlaw Pete, I'm Outlaw Pete, Can you hear me?" Pietrodn powerpdn@gmail.com
Toolserver-l mailing list Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l
Osama KM schrieb:
Is there a 'standard' description page (in English) to be translated to other languages? (this will make the mission much easier for everybody)
[[m:Toolserver]] *should* be that. But it isn't. The page on the english wikipedia isn't very good. I'll see if I can find time to overhaul that text and transwiki it to the toolserver wiki, where a good description is also missing.
-- daniel
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Hallo Daniel
If you need help for 1) you can contact me, I would be glad to help you, if needed and wanded... ;)
Greetings! Ursin (DrTrigon)
Daniel Kinzler schrieb:
Hi all
during wikimedia germany's brithday party yesterday, I was asked to look into improving the communication between toolserver folks and the wiki communities using the toolserver. We have become an important part of their infrastructure, and when things break, they notice - but often don't know who to ask about it.
So, I would like to propose a few things to improve this situation.
- There should be a short description of the toolserver, with the relevant
links, in the project namespace of each wiki that us the toolserver significantly. That page should be maintained by the local community of course, but I think it would be ideal if a toolserver user who is also a member of that community would help with that, or even start the page. I will do this for the german wikipedia soon.
- we, the toolserver admins, should use the toolserver blog more to communicate
what's going on with the TS. I guess several of the messages I posted here lately should have gone to the blog too. Maybe blog posts could be forwarded to toolserver-l automatically? posting the same thing to several places is annoying...
- we should incurage people to describe their tools on the toolserver wiki,
kind of like the description pages for extension on mediawiki.org. Perhaps we should have a guideline for this?
The idea is to promote some more information about who we are, what we do, and how the toolserver works. And we should also help people to find the right person to contact when things break. What do you think?
-- daniel
Toolserver-l mailing list Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l
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