Something for the socials?
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Ori Livneh* ori@wikimedia.org Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015 Subject: [Wmfall] Facebook's HHVM performance sprint retrospective highlights MediaWiki gains To: Staff All wmfall@lists.wikimedia.org
Facebook's HHVM team just completed their first performance lockdown, which they spent focusing on the performance of open-source PHP frameworks under HHVM. The achievement which they chose to highlight in their blog posts is a gain of 19% in their MediaWiki performance benchmark, which is – you guessed it – a parse of the Barack Obama article.
https://code.facebook.com/posts/902199373155728/-inside-the-hhvm-lockdown/
http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
@mediawiki already retweeted this one earlier: https://twitter.com/fbOpenSource/status/608347677735194626
But I agree that a more salient tweet would be nice. How about:
Thanks, @fbOpenSource, for speeding up [[Barack Obama]] by 19.4% via @HipHopVM! http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
and something similar on FB/G+.
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:30 PM, Katherine Maher kmaher@wikimedia.org wrote:
Something for the socials?
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015 Subject: [Wmfall] Facebook's HHVM performance sprint retrospective highlights MediaWiki gains To: Staff All wmfall@lists.wikimedia.org
Facebook's HHVM team just completed their first performance lockdown, which they spent focusing on the performance of open-source PHP frameworks under HHVM. The achievement which they chose to highlight in their blog posts is a gain of 19% in their MediaWiki performance benchmark, which is – you guessed it – a parse of the Barack Obama article.
https://code.facebook.com/posts/902199373155728/-inside-the-hhvm-lockdown/
http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
-- Katherine Maher Chief Communications Officer Wikimedia Foundation 149 New Montgomery Street San Francisco, CA 94105
+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635 +1 (415) 712 4873 kmaher@wikimedia.org
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
This sounds a bit like we're speeding up Barack Obama himself. I make no comment on Mr. Obama's pace... but perhaps we should use "Obama's article" instead of the square brackets?
FB/G+ can be pretty much the same with (obviously) differently-formatted tags.
Joe
On 12 June 2015 at 06:48, Tilman Bayer tbayer@wikimedia.org wrote:
@mediawiki already retweeted this one earlier: https://twitter.com/fbOpenSource/status/608347677735194626
But I agree that a more salient tweet would be nice. How about:
Thanks, @fbOpenSource, for speeding up [[Barack Obama]] by 19.4% via @HipHopVM! http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
and something similar on FB/G+.
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:30 PM, Katherine Maher kmaher@wikimedia.org wrote:
Something for the socials?
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015 Subject: [Wmfall] Facebook's HHVM performance sprint retrospective highlights MediaWiki gains To: Staff All wmfall@lists.wikimedia.org
Facebook's HHVM team just completed their first performance lockdown,
which
they spent focusing on the performance of open-source PHP frameworks
under
HHVM. The achievement which they chose to highlight in their blog posts
is a
gain of 19% in their MediaWiki performance benchmark, which is – you
guessed
it – a parse of the Barack Obama article.
https://code.facebook.com/posts/902199373155728/-inside-the-hhvm-lockdown/
http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
-- Katherine Maher Chief Communications Officer Wikimedia Foundation 149 New Montgomery Street San Francisco, CA 94105
+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635 +1 (415) 712 4873 kmaher@wikimedia.org
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
-- Tilman Bayer Senior Analyst Wikimedia Foundation IRC (Freenode): HaeB
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
I'm also a little dubious about thanking fbopensource, which makes it sound like we handed them our stack and projects.
Can we say something more like :
Wikipedia runs faster thanks to @hiphopvm. @fbopensource finds Barack Obama's article loads 19% quicker: http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
On Friday, June 12, 2015, Joe Sutherland jsutherland@wikimedia.org wrote:
This sounds a bit like we're speeding up Barack Obama himself. I make no comment on Mr. Obama's pace... but perhaps we should use "Obama's article" instead of the square brackets?
FB/G+ can be pretty much the same with (obviously) differently-formatted tags.
Joe
On 12 June 2015 at 06:48, Tilman Bayer <tbayer@wikimedia.org javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tbayer@wikimedia.org');> wrote:
@mediawiki already retweeted this one earlier: https://twitter.com/fbOpenSource/status/608347677735194626
But I agree that a more salient tweet would be nice. How about:
Thanks, @fbOpenSource, for speeding up [[Barack Obama]] by 19.4% via @HipHopVM! http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
and something similar on FB/G+.
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:30 PM, Katherine Maher <kmaher@wikimedia.org javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kmaher@wikimedia.org');> wrote:
Something for the socials?
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ori Livneh <ori@wikimedia.org
javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ori@wikimedia.org');>
Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015 Subject: [Wmfall] Facebook's HHVM performance sprint retrospective highlights MediaWiki gains To: Staff All <wmfall@lists.wikimedia.org
javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wmfall@lists.wikimedia.org');>
Facebook's HHVM team just completed their first performance lockdown,
which
they spent focusing on the performance of open-source PHP frameworks
under
HHVM. The achievement which they chose to highlight in their blog posts
is a
gain of 19% in their MediaWiki performance benchmark, which is – you
guessed
it – a parse of the Barack Obama article.
https://code.facebook.com/posts/902199373155728/-inside-the-hhvm-lockdown/
http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
-- Katherine Maher Chief Communications Officer Wikimedia Foundation 149 New Montgomery Street San Francisco, CA 94105
+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635 +1 (415) 712 4873 kmaher@wikimedia.org
javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kmaher@wikimedia.org');
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org
javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org');
-- Tilman Bayer Senior Analyst Wikimedia Foundation IRC (Freenode): HaeB
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org'); https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
-- *Joe Sutherland* Communications Intern [remote] m: +44 (0) 7722 916 433 | t: @jrbsu http://twitter.com/jrbsu | w: JSutherland https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:JSutherland_(WMF)
That suggestion looks good to me.
Joe
On 12 June 2015 at 15:24, Katherine Maher kmaher@wikimedia.org wrote:
I'm also a little dubious about thanking fbopensource, which makes it sound like we handed them our stack and projects.
Can we say something more like :
Wikipedia runs faster thanks to @hiphopvm. @fbopensource finds Barack Obama's article loads 19% quicker: http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
On Friday, June 12, 2015, Joe Sutherland jsutherland@wikimedia.org wrote:
This sounds a bit like we're speeding up Barack Obama himself. I make no comment on Mr. Obama's pace... but perhaps we should use "Obama's article" instead of the square brackets?
FB/G+ can be pretty much the same with (obviously) differently-formatted tags.
Joe
On 12 June 2015 at 06:48, Tilman Bayer tbayer@wikimedia.org wrote:
@mediawiki already retweeted this one earlier: https://twitter.com/fbOpenSource/status/608347677735194626
But I agree that a more salient tweet would be nice. How about:
Thanks, @fbOpenSource, for speeding up [[Barack Obama]] by 19.4% via @HipHopVM! http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
and something similar on FB/G+.
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:30 PM, Katherine Maher kmaher@wikimedia.org wrote:
Something for the socials?
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015 Subject: [Wmfall] Facebook's HHVM performance sprint retrospective highlights MediaWiki gains To: Staff All wmfall@lists.wikimedia.org
Facebook's HHVM team just completed their first performance lockdown,
which
they spent focusing on the performance of open-source PHP frameworks
under
HHVM. The achievement which they chose to highlight in their blog
posts is a
gain of 19% in their MediaWiki performance benchmark, which is – you
guessed
it – a parse of the Barack Obama article.
https://code.facebook.com/posts/902199373155728/-inside-the-hhvm-lockdown/
http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
-- Katherine Maher Chief Communications Officer Wikimedia Foundation 149 New Montgomery Street San Francisco, CA 94105
+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635 +1 (415) 712 4873 kmaher@wikimedia.org
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
-- Tilman Bayer Senior Analyst Wikimedia Foundation IRC (Freenode): HaeB
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
-- *Joe Sutherland* Communications Intern [remote] m: +44 (0) 7722 916 433 | t: @jrbsu http://twitter.com/jrbsu | w: JSutherland https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:JSutherland_(WMF)
-- Katherine Maher Chief Communications Officer Wikimedia Foundation 149 New Montgomery Street San Francisco, CA 94105
+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635 +1 (415) 712 4873 kmaher@wikimedia.org
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
But that implies that users can already see the benefit, which is not true -- the version of HHVM that incorporates these performance improvements has just been released and it will probably take us a month to upgrade..
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Joe Sutherland jsutherland@wikimedia.org wrote:
That suggestion looks good to me.
Joe
On 12 June 2015 at 15:24, Katherine Maher kmaher@wikimedia.org wrote:
I'm also a little dubious about thanking fbopensource, which makes it sound like we handed them our stack and projects.
Can we say something more like :
Wikipedia runs faster thanks to @hiphopvm. @fbopensource finds Barack Obama's article loads 19% quicker: http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
On Friday, June 12, 2015, Joe Sutherland jsutherland@wikimedia.org wrote:
This sounds a bit like we're speeding up Barack Obama himself. I make no comment on Mr. Obama's pace... but perhaps we should use "Obama's article" instead of the square brackets?
FB/G+ can be pretty much the same with (obviously) differently-formatted tags.
Joe
On 12 June 2015 at 06:48, Tilman Bayer tbayer@wikimedia.org wrote:
@mediawiki already retweeted this one earlier: https://twitter.com/fbOpenSource/status/608347677735194626
But I agree that a more salient tweet would be nice. How about:
Thanks, @fbOpenSource, for speeding up [[Barack Obama]] by 19.4% via @HipHopVM! http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
and something similar on FB/G+.
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:30 PM, Katherine Maher kmaher@wikimedia.org wrote:
Something for the socials?
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015 Subject: [Wmfall] Facebook's HHVM performance sprint retrospective highlights MediaWiki gains To: Staff All wmfall@lists.wikimedia.org
Facebook's HHVM team just completed their first performance lockdown,
which
they spent focusing on the performance of open-source PHP frameworks
under
HHVM. The achievement which they chose to highlight in their blog
posts is a
gain of 19% in their MediaWiki performance benchmark, which is – you
guessed
it – a parse of the Barack Obama article.
https://code.facebook.com/posts/902199373155728/-inside-the-hhvm-lockdown/
http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance
-- Katherine Maher Chief Communications Officer Wikimedia Foundation 149 New Montgomery Street San Francisco, CA 94105
+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635 +1 (415) 712 4873 kmaher@wikimedia.org
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
-- Tilman Bayer Senior Analyst Wikimedia Foundation IRC (Freenode): HaeB
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
-- *Joe Sutherland* Communications Intern [remote] m: +44 (0) 7722 916 433 | t: @jrbsu http://twitter.com/jrbsu | w: JSutherland https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:JSutherland_(WMF)
-- Katherine Maher Chief Communications Officer Wikimedia Foundation 149 New Montgomery Street San Francisco, CA 94105
+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635 +1 (415) 712 4873 kmaher@wikimedia.org
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
-- *Joe Sutherland* Communications Intern [remote] m: +44 (0) 7722 916 433 | t: @jrbsu http://twitter.com/jrbsu | w: JSutherland https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:JSutherland_(WMF)
On 12 June 2015 at 08:09, Ori Livneh ori@wikimedia.org wrote:
But that implies that users can already see the benefit, which is not true -- the version of HHVM that incorporates these performance improvements has just been released and it will probably take us a month to upgrade..
In that case,
Wikipedia runs faster thanks to @hiphopvm. @fbopensource finds Barack Obama's article will load 19% quicker: http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance%E2%80%8B
…perhaps?
J.
In that case,
Wikipedia runs faster thanks to @hiphopvm. @fbopensource finds Barack
Obama's article will load 19% quicker: http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance%E2%80%8B
Obama doesn't own the article. How about:
Wikipedia runs faster thanks to @hiphopvm. @fbopensource finds article "Barack Obama" will load 19% quicker: http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance%E2%80%8B
-Jeremy
Is it necessary to use the Obama example at all? There are others that WMF could test independently. Or how about communicating a median improvement time for the most popular 100 Wikipedia articles in all languages? Waiting a month for test results would be ok, right?
Pine
Generally the Obama article's used as a baseline since it's enormous. I don't know if it's the most complex article on Wikipedia but it's gotta be close.
As for a more thorough piece of research, I don't personally know what the procedure is for these sorts of things.
Joe
On 12 June 2015 at 17:29, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Is it necessary to use the Obama example at all? There are others that WMF could test independently. Or how about communicating a median improvement time for the most popular 100 Wikipedia articles in all languages? Waiting a month for test results would be ok, right?
Pine
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
In terms of byte size, that article isn't even in the top 250. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LongPages&redirect=...
Pine On Jun 12, 2015 9:31 AM, "Joe Sutherland" jsutherland@wikimedia.org wrote:
Generally the Obama article's used as a baseline since it's enormous. I don't know if it's the most complex article on Wikipedia but it's gotta be close.
As for a more thorough piece of research, I don't personally know what the procedure is for these sorts of things.
Joe
On 12 June 2015 at 17:29, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Is it necessary to use the Obama example at all? There are others that WMF could test independently. Or how about communicating a median improvement time for the most popular 100 Wikipedia articles in all languages? Waiting a month for test results would be ok, right?
Pine
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
-- *Joe Sutherland* Communications Intern [remote] m: +44 (0) 7722 916 433 | t: @jrbsu http://twitter.com/jrbsu | w: JSutherland https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:JSutherland_(WMF)
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
On Jun 12, 2015 12:41, "Pine W" wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
In terms of byte size, that article isn't even in the top 250. See
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LongPages&redirect=...
And by template count? Or cite template count?
Also there's some value to continuity. We've been using the Obama example for years.
-Jeremy
I agree that there is value in continuity, but remember that Wikipedia articles change over time, so unless someone is using a specific rev for measuring every time that they make a change to how the page renders, then there is likely to be at least some unreliability in the measurement. Technical factors like bandwidth and geolocation may also be involved in skewing the validity of comparisons.
For most citations, there appears to be a manually updated list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_with_the_most_references
I wasn't able to find a list of articles with the most templates, although there are a few articles where the template expansion depth limit is exceeded.
Perhaps we should take the discussion of how best to measure page rendering performance to Wikitech. Would that be ok with you?
Pine
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Jeremy Baron jeremy@tuxmachine.com wrote:
On Jun 12, 2015 12:41, "Pine W" wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
In terms of byte size, that article isn't even in the top 250. See
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LongPages&redirect=...
And by template count? Or cite template count?
Also there's some value to continuity. We've been using the Obama example for years.
-Jeremy
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
On Jun 13, 2015 1:06 AM, "Pine W" wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps we should take the discussion of how best to measure page
rendering performance to Wikitech. Would that be ok with you?
We could. Or maybe the research or analytics lists list would be better.
But should that block getting the SM out the door?
I agree that there is value in continuity, but remember that Wikipedia
articles change over time, so unless someone is using a specific rev for measuring every time that they make a change to how the page renders, then there is likely to be at least some unreliability in the measurement.
Obviously we could double check this but I'd wager that Obama's cite count would have trended upward in the last couple years. (so e.g. if we compared older HHVM vs. newer HHVM with constant Obama rev the gains would be more extreme than if we did older HHVM + older Obama vs. newer HHVM + newer Obama)
Anyway, it should be technically feasible to run benchmarks for old software again against the new revisions. In this case the author wasn't actually comparing to past numbers. (I think...) Only generating his own new numbers for a constant rev. And anyway, the comparison to old numbers wouldn't be meaningful (without rerunning them) because hardware's not constant.
Technical factors like bandwidth and geolocation may also be involved in
skewing the validity of comparisons.
I can't imagine a scenario where that's relevant. Does anyone benchmark specific articles over the public internet? vs. running the client on the same local network as the server.
For most citations, there appears to be a manually updated list here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_with_the_most_references
not just manually updated but each entry has its own separate update date??? hrmmm, Obama is listed lower on that list than another article with Obama in title…
-Jeremy
P.S. the recently released slow parse logs may be useful for choosing articles to track over time. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98563
Hmm. Maybe it's easier to send the SM out and deal with the tech fine print by having people read a full write-up from the provided links?
I mainly wish that we could use some relatively safe, apolitical, uncontroversial article for the example.
Pine
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:03 PM, Jeremy Baron jeremy@tuxmachine.com wrote:
On Jun 13, 2015 1:06 AM, "Pine W" wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps we should take the discussion of how best to measure page
rendering performance to Wikitech. Would that be ok with you?
We could. Or maybe the research or analytics lists list would be better.
But should that block getting the SM out the door?
I agree that there is value in continuity, but remember that Wikipedia
articles change over time, so unless someone is using a specific rev for measuring every time that they make a change to how the page renders, then there is likely to be at least some unreliability in the measurement.
Obviously we could double check this but I'd wager that Obama's cite count would have trended upward in the last couple years. (so e.g. if we compared older HHVM vs. newer HHVM with constant Obama rev the gains would be more extreme than if we did older HHVM + older Obama vs. newer HHVM + newer Obama)
Anyway, it should be technically feasible to run benchmarks for old software again against the new revisions. In this case the author wasn't actually comparing to past numbers. (I think...) Only generating his own new numbers for a constant rev. And anyway, the comparison to old numbers wouldn't be meaningful (without rerunning them) because hardware's not constant.
Technical factors like bandwidth and geolocation may also be involved in
skewing the validity of comparisons.
I can't imagine a scenario where that's relevant. Does anyone benchmark specific articles over the public internet? vs. running the client on the same local network as the server.
For most citations, there appears to be a manually updated list here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_with_the_most_references
not just manually updated but each entry has its own separate update date??? hrmmm, Obama is listed lower on that list than another article with Obama in title…
-Jeremy
P.S. the recently released slow parse logs may be useful for choosing articles to track over time. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98563
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
Setting aside the benchmark measurement, Obama is extremely well-known, and that will help get traction on social... as opposed to city nicknames or law clerks of the US Supreme Court.
--Ed
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hmm. Maybe it's easier to send the SM out and deal with the tech fine print by having people read a full write-up from the provided links?
I mainly wish that we could use some relatively safe, apolitical, uncontroversial article for the example.
Pine
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:03 PM, Jeremy Baron jeremy@tuxmachine.com wrote:
On Jun 13, 2015 1:06 AM, "Pine W" wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps we should take the discussion of how best to measure page
rendering performance to Wikitech. Would that be ok with you?
We could. Or maybe the research or analytics lists list would be better.
But should that block getting the SM out the door?
I agree that there is value in continuity, but remember that Wikipedia
articles change over time, so unless someone is using a specific rev for measuring every time that they make a change to how the page renders, then there is likely to be at least some unreliability in the measurement.
Obviously we could double check this but I'd wager that Obama's cite count would have trended upward in the last couple years. (so e.g. if we compared older HHVM vs. newer HHVM with constant Obama rev the gains would be more extreme than if we did older HHVM + older Obama vs. newer HHVM + newer Obama)
Anyway, it should be technically feasible to run benchmarks for old software again against the new revisions. In this case the author wasn't actually comparing to past numbers. (I think...) Only generating his own new numbers for a constant rev. And anyway, the comparison to old numbers wouldn't be meaningful (without rerunning them) because hardware's not constant.
Technical factors like bandwidth and geolocation may also be involved
in skewing the validity of comparisons.
I can't imagine a scenario where that's relevant. Does anyone benchmark specific articles over the public internet? vs. running the client on the same local network as the server.
For most citations, there appears to be a manually updated list here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_with_the_most_references
not just manually updated but each entry has its own separate update date??? hrmmm, Obama is listed lower on that list than another article with Obama in title…
-Jeremy
P.S. the recently released slow parse logs may be useful for choosing articles to track over time. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98563
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
I was thinking that "2015 in sports" would be a good alternative. It ranks highly for both number of citations and the length of the article. Also, it uses lots of small templates for the flags of countries.
Pine
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 12:21 AM, Ed Erhart eerhart@wikimedia.org wrote:
Setting aside the benchmark measurement, Obama is extremely well-known, and that will help get traction on social... as opposed to city nicknames or law clerks of the US Supreme Court.
--Ed
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hmm. Maybe it's easier to send the SM out and deal with the tech fine print by having people read a full write-up from the provided links?
I mainly wish that we could use some relatively safe, apolitical, uncontroversial article for the example.
Pine
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:03 PM, Jeremy Baron jeremy@tuxmachine.com wrote:
On Jun 13, 2015 1:06 AM, "Pine W" wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps we should take the discussion of how best to measure page
rendering performance to Wikitech. Would that be ok with you?
We could. Or maybe the research or analytics lists list would be better.
But should that block getting the SM out the door?
I agree that there is value in continuity, but remember that Wikipedia
articles change over time, so unless someone is using a specific rev for measuring every time that they make a change to how the page renders, then there is likely to be at least some unreliability in the measurement.
Obviously we could double check this but I'd wager that Obama's cite count would have trended upward in the last couple years. (so e.g. if we compared older HHVM vs. newer HHVM with constant Obama rev the gains would be more extreme than if we did older HHVM + older Obama vs. newer HHVM + newer Obama)
Anyway, it should be technically feasible to run benchmarks for old software again against the new revisions. In this case the author wasn't actually comparing to past numbers. (I think...) Only generating his own new numbers for a constant rev. And anyway, the comparison to old numbers wouldn't be meaningful (without rerunning them) because hardware's not constant.
Technical factors like bandwidth and geolocation may also be involved
in skewing the validity of comparisons.
I can't imagine a scenario where that's relevant. Does anyone benchmark specific articles over the public internet? vs. running the client on the same local network as the server.
For most citations, there appears to be a manually updated list here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_with_the_most_references
not just manually updated but each entry has its own separate update date??? hrmmm, Obama is listed lower on that list than another article with Obama in title…
-Jeremy
P.S. the recently released slow parse logs may be useful for choosing articles to track over time. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98563
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
-- Ed Erhart Editorial Intern Wikimedia Foundation
Social-media mailing list Social-media@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/social-media
But has a narrower audience than the President f the United States, whose name recognition is quite high...
Let's get the social out the door on Monday.
On Saturday, June 13, 2015, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I was thinking that "2015 in sports" would be a good alternative. It ranks highly for both number of citations and the length of the article. Also, it uses lots of small templates for the flags of countries.
Pine
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 12:21 AM, Ed Erhart <eerhart@wikimedia.org javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','eerhart@wikimedia.org');> wrote:
Setting aside the benchmark measurement, Obama is extremely well-known, and that will help get traction on social... as opposed to city nicknames or law clerks of the US Supreme Court.
--Ed
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wiki.pine@gmail.com');> wrote:
Hmm. Maybe it's easier to send the SM out and deal with the tech fine print by having people read a full write-up from the provided links?
I mainly wish that we could use some relatively safe, apolitical, uncontroversial article for the example.
Pine
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:03 PM, Jeremy Baron <jeremy@tuxmachine.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jeremy@tuxmachine.com');> wrote:
On Jun 13, 2015 1:06 AM, "Pine W" <wiki.pine@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wiki.pine@gmail.com');> wrote:
Perhaps we should take the discussion of how best to measure page
rendering performance to Wikitech. Would that be ok with you?
We could. Or maybe the research or analytics lists list would be better.
But should that block getting the SM out the door?
I agree that there is value in continuity, but remember that
Wikipedia articles change over time, so unless someone is using a specific rev for measuring every time that they make a change to how the page renders, then there is likely to be at least some unreliability in the measurement.
Obviously we could double check this but I'd wager that Obama's cite count would have trended upward in the last couple years. (so e.g. if we compared older HHVM vs. newer HHVM with constant Obama rev the gains would be more extreme than if we did older HHVM + older Obama vs. newer HHVM + newer Obama)
Anyway, it should be technically feasible to run benchmarks for old software again against the new revisions. In this case the author wasn't actually comparing to past numbers. (I think...) Only generating his own new numbers for a constant rev. And anyway, the comparison to old numbers wouldn't be meaningful (without rerunning them) because hardware's not constant.
Technical factors like bandwidth and geolocation may also be involved
in skewing the validity of comparisons.
I can't imagine a scenario where that's relevant. Does anyone benchmark specific articles over the public internet? vs. running the client on the same local network as the server.
For most citations, there appears to be a manually updated list here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_with_the_most_references
not just manually updated but each entry has its own separate update date??? hrmmm, Obama is listed lower on that list than another article with Obama in title…
-Jeremy
P.S. the recently released slow parse logs may be useful for choosing articles to track over time. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T98563
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On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I agree that there is value in continuity, but remember that Wikipedia articles change over time, so unless someone is using a specific rev for measuring every time that they make a change to how the page renders, then there is likely to be at least some unreliability in the measurement. Technical factors like bandwidth and geolocation may also be involved in skewing the validity of comparisons.
An astute observation that shows your deep knowledge about wiki technology and web performance measurement. However, I'm pretty certain that for this particular project, Facebook's HHVM engineers tested the same revision of the article, and knew how isolate/separate varying bandwith.
For most citations, there appears to be a manually updated list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_with_the_most_references
I wasn't able to find a list of articles with the most templates, although there are a few articles where the template expansion depth limit is exceeded.
As mentioned in the blog post that we want to socialize here (http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance ), "MediaWiki was benchmarked using the Barack Obama page from Wikipedia, as was recommended by an engineer from Wikimedia foundation as representative of their load." What you describe sounds more like a recipe to find outliers, not examples that are reasonably representative. Also, as Jeremy mentioned, the Obama article has a bit of a tradition among MediaWiki developers as an example of a somewhat complicated but popular article, also in other context than performance - see eg. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_Android_app_screenshot_aft... or search for "Obama" on Phabricator. I think it's a straightforward choice as the head of state of the country where Wikipedia is hosted, and not really politically charged at that. I'm usually all for crafting social media messages carefully and avoiding gaffes, but in this case we may be overthinking things a little.
Perhaps we should take the discussion of how best to measure page rendering performance to Wikitech. Would that be ok with you?
I don't want to stop you from educating the performance engineers at Facebook and WMF about the wrongness of their ways, but we should indeed get this social media message out soon, and I assume it would take Facebook a while to re-run their study anyway. In general, you may be interested in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T97378#1285776 .
Pine
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Jeremy Baron jeremy@tuxmachine.com wrote:
On Jun 12, 2015 12:41, "Pine W" wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
In terms of byte size, that article isn't even in the top 250. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LongPages&redirect=...
And by template count? Or cite template count?
Also there's some value to continuity. We've been using the Obama example for years.
-Jeremy
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Hello everyone:
We have shared the following:
@wikipedia: https://twitter.com/Wikipedia/status/610487521630261248
I also shared it from @mediawiki: https://twitter.com/mediawiki/status/610487521651208192
Fb: https://www.facebook.com/wikipedia/posts/10153315749163346
Of course, we have our MediaWiki FB account: https://www.facebook.com/MediaWikiProject?ref=hl
Wikipedia G+ : https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/100123345029543043288/+Wikipedia/posts/SPbWCTi...
On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 8:49 AM, Tilman Bayer tbayer@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I agree that there is value in continuity, but remember that Wikipedia articles change over time, so unless someone is using a specific rev for measuring every time that they make a change to how the page renders,
then
there is likely to be at least some unreliability in the measurement. Technical factors like bandwidth and geolocation may also be involved in skewing the validity of comparisons.
An astute observation that shows your deep knowledge about wiki technology and web performance measurement. However, I'm pretty certain that for this particular project, Facebook's HHVM engineers tested the same revision of the article, and knew how isolate/separate varying bandwith.
For most citations, there appears to be a manually updated list here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_with_the_most_references
I wasn't able to find a list of articles with the most templates,
although
there are a few articles where the template expansion depth limit is exceeded.
As mentioned in the blog post that we want to socialize here (http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance ), "MediaWiki was benchmarked using the Barack Obama page from Wikipedia, as was recommended by an engineer from Wikimedia foundation as representative of their load." What you describe sounds more like a recipe to find outliers, not examples that are reasonably representative. Also, as Jeremy mentioned, the Obama article has a bit of a tradition among MediaWiki developers as an example of a somewhat complicated but popular article, also in other context than performance - see eg.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_Android_app_screenshot_aft... or search for "Obama" on Phabricator. I think it's a straightforward choice as the head of state of the country where Wikipedia is hosted, and not really politically charged at that. I'm usually all for crafting social media messages carefully and avoiding gaffes, but in this case we may be overthinking things a little.
Perhaps we should take the discussion of how best to measure page
rendering
performance to Wikitech. Would that be ok with you?
I don't want to stop you from educating the performance engineers at Facebook and WMF about the wrongness of their ways, but we should indeed get this social media message out soon, and I assume it would take Facebook a while to re-run their study anyway. In general, you may be interested in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T97378#1285776 .
Pine
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Jeremy Baron jeremy@tuxmachine.com
wrote:
On Jun 12, 2015 12:41, "Pine W" wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
In terms of byte size, that article isn't even in the top 250. See
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LongPages&redirect=...
And by template count? Or cite template count?
Also there's some value to continuity. We've been using the Obama
example
for years.
-Jeremy
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Noted, thanks. Perhaps I'll get around to discussing performance benchmarks down the road, and as you say, perhaps I'm overthinking this.
Pine
On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 8:49 AM, Tilman Bayer tbayer@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I agree that there is value in continuity, but remember that Wikipedia articles change over time, so unless someone is using a specific rev for measuring every time that they make a change to how the page renders,
then
there is likely to be at least some unreliability in the measurement. Technical factors like bandwidth and geolocation may also be involved in skewing the validity of comparisons.
An astute observation that shows your deep knowledge about wiki technology and web performance measurement. However, I'm pretty certain that for this particular project, Facebook's HHVM engineers tested the same revision of the article, and knew how isolate/separate varying bandwith.
For most citations, there appears to be a manually updated list here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_with_the_most_references
I wasn't able to find a list of articles with the most templates,
although
there are a few articles where the template expansion depth limit is exceeded.
As mentioned in the blog post that we want to socialize here (http://hhvm.com/blog/9293/lockdown-results-and-hhvm-performance ), "MediaWiki was benchmarked using the Barack Obama page from Wikipedia, as was recommended by an engineer from Wikimedia foundation as representative of their load." What you describe sounds more like a recipe to find outliers, not examples that are reasonably representative. Also, as Jeremy mentioned, the Obama article has a bit of a tradition among MediaWiki developers as an example of a somewhat complicated but popular article, also in other context than performance - see eg.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_Android_app_screenshot_aft... or search for "Obama" on Phabricator. I think it's a straightforward choice as the head of state of the country where Wikipedia is hosted, and not really politically charged at that. I'm usually all for crafting social media messages carefully and avoiding gaffes, but in this case we may be overthinking things a little.
Perhaps we should take the discussion of how best to measure page
rendering
performance to Wikitech. Would that be ok with you?
I don't want to stop you from educating the performance engineers at Facebook and WMF about the wrongness of their ways, but we should indeed get this social media message out soon, and I assume it would take Facebook a while to re-run their study anyway. In general, you may be interested in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T97378#1285776 .
Pine
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Jeremy Baron jeremy@tuxmachine.com
wrote:
On Jun 12, 2015 12:41, "Pine W" wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
In terms of byte size, that article isn't even in the top 250. See
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LongPages&redirect=...
And by template count? Or cite template count?
Also there's some value to continuity. We've been using the Obama
example
for years.
-Jeremy
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On Jun 12, 2015 12:29, "Pine W" wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Is it necessary to use the Obama example at all?
Obama's been a standard, frequently used benchmark for MediaWiki performance for years. (I think the first I recall it being used as a metric for the effect of the lua conversion for cite templates)
There are others that WMF could test independently.
Or we could give a list of articles to the people that tested already and they could rerun with those. Or maybe Obama is good enough for now.
-Jeremy
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