Hi,
I am writing this without even looking at Quatro 2. I saw it last 2 days ago. I am, however, reading today's e-mail about the release of Quatro 2 and getting rather disturbed. I was Chief Copyeditor of Quatro 1. At that time I was put in contact with Sj+, in case I had any questions or comments. When Quatro 2 was being written, I began as the Chief Copyeditor and somehow became a "Proofreader." I let this go. I have slowly been copyediting Quatro 2. I am not finished. I stopped a few weeks ago because so many parts of Quatro 2 were actually not even in good Engliish, and contacted Sj+. He told me to stop for a while, and he would clean it up a bit. After a week or so, I contacted him again, to see whether this clean-up was done. He never answered. I started copyediting,again. By now, I am totally confused. It seems like Aphaia is more in charge of Quatro 2 than Sj+. Further, although there are a number of Proofreaders listed on Quatro 2, I rarely see any changes except my own. To publish a newsletter properly, first all the content should be complete. Then, it should be "copyedited," then translated, and then published. Quatro 2 has gone from 6 to over 30 pages, while I have been copyediting it. This is not right. Further, I have no one to contact who responds. Further, if discussions are being held about publishing parts of it, I think I might have been included or at least told. Today I am reading, on a mailing list, how selective parts of it are due to be published March 15. Fine - has anyone checked them to see if they are copyedited. I haven't had the time yet. I would appreciate it if you would wait for some input from me, include me as member of the Quatro team, or tell me that I am not needed and remove my name. Every contact I made with Sj+ is availble on his en.wikipedia.org user page on the Talk part. My user page on the same site, has mostly a lack of responses on the Talk part. If you choose to check these pages, they will confirm what I have told you. I am glad to review the sections you want to publish, given a day or so to look them over, or alternatively, to resign from this "position." But, as a contributor, I expect to be kept informed of new deverlopments and be given someone to contact (who responds,) or I cannot do this job properly. I await your decisions.
As Ever,
Ruth Ifcher
--
-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com
I think the version should be already released, even if some parts are not translated. In particular the interview.
I think it is not such a big deal if some parts are not translated, and the idea of putting them off for another trimester is not such a good idea.
As for me, I "released" (somehow) the french version on the french wikipedia when the fundraising started (with link to meta, that is not great, but better than nothing).
I would prefer untranslated part to removal. We could already release those which are 80 % translated and complete parts non translated in english.
Yes, I agree, we should do next version smaller.
Actually, since two languages now have a sort of weekly or monthly news magazine, we could probably be lighter on some points, and limit it more strictly to foundation activity. This is possibly something to consider.
In any cases, it makes little sense to my opinion to report meeting in last november next summer.
Maybe we need to more precisely see how many languages are covered, which parts etc ???
Did you make a summary ?
ant
--- Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
Hello, I'm now worried about Quarto vol.2: its release strongly. In my opinion we are better to release it within this month, if possible before March 15, the midst of this month.
Quarto is a newsletter from the foundation (hence from the board) and Quarto vol.2 is basically a report of the foundation and board activity in 2004/Q4. I like to read project reports and meetups but essentially they are additional parts in my understandings. We can put aside them. But quartery report should be provide in my opinion.
We are an international non-profit organisation and people support us substentially, therefore we should react to those support. And in my part the activity of the project like Wikipedia is not sufficient for such responsibility and visibility of the foundation. And I have no reason to let the relase of information on those issues delay no more. If we are waiting for the begining of 2005/Q2, we will be seemed to be idle, though I know many of translators have been working on it, such shadow work is always uncomprehensible from the outside.
Recently Sj and I talked about this issue and we reached to the conclusion some contributions to Quarto vol.2 could appear on vol.3. Now I propose we will release some edition including English, German, Japanese and French on March 15. But not the whole part of initial plan but the content as the below: *Whole part of pages 1-3 and 8 (Endnote, Angela's report on BBC visit) *Some part of page 4; (Project report) Local chapter reports, Wikinews reports, short report from some language projects, "Buon Natale" project report (it is a seasonal topic so can't be delay more) . Other stuffs will be reused on the "Spring" issue. *If possible, "In the Media" and "International": I think most of this part are translated already and we have no reason to save it to the next issues.
On the contrary the interview of Larry Lessig will appear in the next edition. I propose here some stuffs will appear only twice a year to reduce the task of volunteer translators. In current situation there are too many stuffs. Since we have no right to assign translation task to each community nor certain translators, and curerntly we are not many in number, we should keep the task in a size we can manage. Or I think we can make a new media to provide project and community news and keep the newsletter much tighter in its shape. but it could be discussed in another chance.
I admit we should have take an action before, but I hope it is not too late. Of course ideally I would like to release the current version in eitht pages, but I assert it is unbearable now for our translator team, so it should be resized and we should provide the quartery report periodically - in my opinion in this situation no news is bad news. Core isseus should be reported even it will seem a bit less amused.
How do you think?
-- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com _______________________________________________ Quarto-l mailing list Quarto-l@mail.wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/quarto-l
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--- rose.parks@att.net wrote:
Hi,
I am writing this without even looking atQuatro 2. I saw it last 2 days ago. I am, however, reading today's e-mail about the release of Quatro 2 and getting rather disturbed. I was Chief Copyeditor of Quatro 1. At that time I was put in contact with Sj+, in case I had any questions or comments. When Quatro 2 was being written, I began as the Chief Copyeditor and somehow became a "Proofreader." I let this go.
Yes, sorry, it was I who simplified. Not to diminish the quality of your work, but simply to recognise the work of others. What I mean is that you are the chief proofreader in english, but how different is it from those who translated the whole issue in one language ? They also were chief translator and chief proofreader in their language. I just do not know how to make this difference :-(
I have slowly been copyediting Quatro 2. I amnot finished. I stopped a few weeks ago because so many parts of Quatro 2 were actually not even in good Engliish, and contacted Sj+. He told me to stop for a while, and he would clean it up a bit. After a week or so, I contacted him again, to see whether this clean-up was done. He never answered. I started copyediting,again. By now, I am totally confused. It seems like Aphaia is more in charge of Quatro 2 than Sj+.
You are correct. Aphaia is in effect the leader of this version.
Further, although there are a number of Proofreaders listed on Quatro 2, I rarely see any changes except my own.
Others work in other language versions.
To publish a newsletter properly, first all thecontent should be complete. Then, it should be "copyedited," then translated, and then published. Quatro 2 has gone from 6 to over 30 pages, while I have been copyediting it. This is not right.
I am confused. Except for the interview Sj took so long to add to Quarto, all content was fixed in january. I spent 2 long weeks fixing everything, because very little had been done in the previous weeks. Just when I finished fixing all texts, Riorio worked a lot on the pictures and Aphaia started helping a lot with the translations and announcements. Text (but for an update on technical part and the interview which was only added long after) was done.
Further, I have no one to contact who responds. Further, if discussions are being held about publishing parts of it, I think I might have been included or at least told. Today I am reading, on a mailing list, how selective parts of it are due to be published March 15. Fine - has anyone checked them to see if they are copyedited. I haven't had the time yet.
Actually, I read this proposition at the same time that you, and just commented what I thought to Aphaia... I understand why she proposed it, but I do not support it. I mentionned I would prefer that parts not yet translated be left in english, and so be it.
I would appreciate it if you would wait forsome input from me, include me as member of the Quatro team, or tell me that I am not needed and remove my name.
You are giving input right now Rose :-) And you are needed.
Every contact I made with Sj+ is
availble on his en.wikipedia.org user page on the Talk part. My user page on the same site, has mostly a lack of responses on the Talk part. If you choose to check these pages, they will confirm what I have told you.
Then, I am most sorry to be crystal clear, but here is the point. I think it was an error to keep the same person as an editor in chief, simply because someone has time at a moment, and not time at another moment. I think Sj had very little time to give for the second issue of Quarto unfortunately :-( I would have preferred that he told us before hand, but very likely he just did not know. We can not always predict our availability. He spent a huge lot of time on the first issue, but far less on the second.
So, when I came back from Christmas holidays, I spent hours everyday to try to fix it all myself. And fortunately, many others came after me to help as well. But Aphaia is currently the nearest one to be the editor in chief, as she has both time and energy for this. Sorry, but I was again on holidays, then with a very tough week at my job which left me in a pretty bad shape, but I will try to help tomorrow morning.
I am glad to review the sections you want topublish, given a day or so to look them over, or alternatively, to resign from this "position." But, as a contributor, I expect to be kept informed of new deverlopments and be given someone to contact (who responds,) or I cannot do this job properly. I await your decisions.
As Ever, Ruth Ifcher
Please, consider Aphaia your contact Ruth.
Additionaly, I will add that I have been thinking over the last days how we could reduce the burden over the translators, as it is too much work.
I still think it is important that we regularly give information over what the Foundation is doing, and how the projects are progressing; However, we'll have to think over the current form of it. It is too much work for a too limited number of people.
I think a good part of what is currently on Quarto should be removed of it in the future, and only placed as ongoing information on the foundation site. If there are translators for it, great, if not, too bad.
For example, we could keep doing regular interviews of people, but only put them on the site. And generally leave them in the original language plus english.
The quarto could limit itself to strict report of board activities.
Possibly, one idea could be to favor the creation of a small weekly newspaper, a bit as Michael Snow did, and invite people from all projects to publish in it.
Translation is not so fun for everyone. Everyone is volunteer here, and we can only do according to our possibilities Ruth. I am very sorry you got upsetted, I hope you understand the problems and have suggestions of how best we can move on.
I just know too much work and publishing 2 months late is just not the solution.
Ant
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Greetings, Rose, all.
I regret terribly the delay in a formal release, and apologize, Ruth, for being slow in getting back to you.
Aphaia writes:
I like to read project reports and meetups but essentially they are additional parts in my understandings. We can put aside them. But quartery report should be provide in my opinion.
Precisely so. Independent of the translation and release of WQ-2, it is time to gather quarterly reports for early 2005, from the board, developers, and community; which we will need for WQ-3.
Ruth Ifcher wrote:
When Quatro 2 was being written, I began as the Chief Copyeditor and somehow became a "Proofreader." I let this go.
To be rectified; this was not intended by anyone as a slight towards your work at all. You remain, even halting in your labours for me to clean up the text and limit how much you worked on under deadline, the Chief Copyeditor in English.
There is a small internationalization problem: each language edition may have its own... in addition to its own Editor, etc. It may be most sensible for parts of the sidebar to be different in each language.
Further, although there are a number of Proofreaders listed on Quatro 2, I rarely see any changes except my own.
...As an example of this problem, the other three proofreaders listed are involved in editing non-english versions of the newsletter.
I have slowly been copyediting Quatro 2. I am not finished. I stopped a few weeks ago > because so many parts of Quatro 2 were actually not even in good Engliish, andcontacted Sj+. He told me to stop for a while, and he would clean it up a bit.
So I did, in an effort to save you from wasted effort. However, the ensuing weeks have been far more... difficult than I had imagined. Thank you for starting to copyedit again, despite the quality of the English.
No discussions have been held yet about publishing selective parts; you have not been left out of planning decisions. In fact, that is what this mailing list is for. Aphaia's post to this list was the beginning of such a discussion, and so you are as much a part of it as anyone.
+sj+
Hello, Sj, Rose, Anthere, all
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:08:20 -0500, Sj 2.718281828@gmail.com wrote:
Greetings, Rose, all.
I missed you and am happy to see you again really. And thank you for your comments. Generally I agree with you in each part.
First sorry to Rose and all, I wrote not in a clear style, I made a proposal to release Vol.2 within this month as one of editor. I understand this list serves such proposals and discussion to determine the policies of edition and publishing. I didn't imagine anyone would take it a sort of final decision and announcement. I didn't think I was CiE of that issue and it was a reason to make me hesitate to propose the release date, but when Sj was away from #quarto and didn't reconnect I realized it was uncertain when we would be able to see and then I made the release date proposal.
After Anthere replied me favourable, I asked some of translators if they will be able to release their edition at that day, but then I thought there were no obvious objection to this schedule, and in my intention it was based on consensus.
So, I am very sorry to make you upset, Ruth, but at the same time I appreciate your feedback. We are better to negotiate details and that was why I posted my mails to this list.
I regret terribly the delay in a formal release, and apologize, Ruth, for being slow in getting back to you.
I feel I should have made that proposal on release date earlier - in February - but now I think we have to concentrate the release within this month too. Later, after the release, we can make a summary on the current issue.
Sj says:
Precisely so. Independent of the translation and release of WQ-2, it is time to gather quarterly reports for early 2005, from the board, developers, and community; which we will need for WQ-3.
I prepared http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WQ/3/Draft I didn't name it plainly WQ/Draft. I was afraid it would cause confusion before the release of WQ2, but I don't oppose to rename it.
And here I would like to make it clear two points. 1. Who is/are responsible to the volume 3 publication (to avoid misunderstanding or confusion Rose expressed) 2. When it will be released.
As for 1 I would like Sj to be Editor-in-chief if possible. In my opinion he is the right stuff to manage this work. At the same time I would like to make my position clear. I feel the necessity of scheduling and translation coordination, and feel the necessity of clarification since I found some people seem to misunderstand as if I, not Sj were EiC, and I wouldn't like pretend I am what I am not, if possible, I would like to have a certain 'position" (I know it is not official but nominal one for convenience) like Vice Editor-in-Chief (I don't know it is a proper English word), Assistant to EiC, Scheduler, Translation Coordinator, or any label which is useful to avoid confusion. Shortly a name which describes properly how I commit to the editing procedure.If anyone find another smart way to avoid conclusion, such proposal will be appreciated.
As for multilingualism of edition I agree wth Anthere and Sj. I would be happy if you let me add some submission are written in other languages than English originally, and even if rarely, people began from that version, not English. So the model Ruth showed us is different from our factual edition process. Not in every case English is the original version. We are better to build a model how it is going on for our own understanding and future improvement of this process...
Sj writes:
No discussions have been held yet about publishing selective parts; you have not been left out of planning decisions. In fact, that is what this mailing list is for. Aphaia's post to this list was the beginning of such a discussion, and so you are as much a part of it as anyone.
Totally agreed. I appreciate hereby all of you to your comments greatly. It is still now a proposal that we will release the newsletter on March 15. The details, how we will do are still on discussion too.
Any your comments, proposals will be appreciated.