Hi all,
the Multimedia team had some discussions recently about how to make our work more transparent and more open to volunteers, and we decided to try using an open subscription mailing list for team discussions, instead of the current practice of cc-ing each member manually. These discussions are about day-to-day details of our work; sometimes feature requirements or design, sometimes technical details. The volume is typically one or two new threads per day.
We weren't sure how much members of this list would be interested in such conversations and didn't want to flood this list with mails that are not useful for most members, but we also do not want to split conversation channels unnecessarily. Please help us by telling whether you would be interested in the topics mentioned above, or would prefer if we created a new mailing list for them.
Thanks! Gergő
Hi! I personally feel it would be great to get an insight of Multimedia viewer's work as sometime it creates confusion for volunteers that what you are currently doing and plan to do.
There should be definitely a new mailing list as the one who want to know your discussions will surely join it.
Cheers!
On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 2:55 PM, Gergo Tisza gtisza@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi all,
the Multimedia team had some discussions recently about how to make our work more transparent and more open to volunteers, and we decided to try using an open subscription mailing list for team discussions, instead of the current practice of cc-ing each member manually. These discussions are about day-to-day details of our work; sometimes feature requirements or design, sometimes technical details. The volume is typically one or two new threads per day.
We weren't sure how much members of this list would be interested in such conversations and didn't want to flood this list with mails that are not useful for most members, but we also do not want to split conversation channels unnecessarily. Please help us by telling whether you would be interested in the topics mentioned above, or would prefer if we created a new mailing list for them.
Thanks! Gergő
Multimedia mailing list Multimedia@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/multimedia
You can start by posting a weekly (activity) report like the Wikidata team does.
Gergo Tisza schreef op 23-2-2014 10:25:
Hi all,
the Multimedia team had some discussions recently about how to make our work more transparent and more open to volunteers, and we decided to try using an open subscription mailing list for team discussions, instead of the current practice of cc-ing each member manually. These discussions are about day-to-day details of our work; sometimes feature requirements or design, sometimes technical details. The volume is typically one or two new threads per day.
We weren't sure how much members of this list would be interested in such conversations and didn't want to flood this list with mails that are not useful for most members, but we also do not want to split conversation channels unnecessarily. Please help us by telling whether you would be interested in the topics mentioned above, or would prefer if we created a new mailing list for them.
Thanks! Gergő
Multimedia mailing list Multimedia@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/multimedia
Dear all,
------------------------------
Like with all other development, I find a need in more documentation of the plans and of the currently active things.
For example, VisualEditor has nothing to help me comprehend its code-base than the source code itself; it had only been a jamesf's line at a meeting which made me aware of the fact that the cologne blue and modern skins are now only supported by community.
Now there are some really cool beta features that only work with the vector skin. To only resource to help me is the source code. There is no UML diagram, no docs explaining which part of code does what.
------------------------------
Another idea is an answer to WHY you are working on the media viewer. It is a nice experience but...
...there is a lot of pages which would make use of a do-it-without-page-reload approach, such as log-in page, edit page, history page.
...there also is a need of all sister projects in wizard tools and widgets. Currently adding an article to Wiktionary is a royal pain and I could not figure out how to add an idiom with translation, without pulling hair and spending time to find another existing Wiktionary entry which is (1) a verb, (2) an idiom, and (3) has a translation. There also are gadgets for the so-called "interactive template" use-case [1] where each developer reinvents wheel a lot and the gadgets share no code but they should.
...everything the WMF works on should have long-term impact after WMF stops working on the darn thing. The impact should be cross project.
... With this in mind I would personally encourage heavy collaboration of all teams to build a framework which lets people script the MediaWiki software including media viewer screen, log-in screens, article creation screens / wizard, an interactive thingie for working with templates [1] (taking an {{unblock}} request for example without having to memorize the template syntax).
This may need help from VisualEditor and Parsoid people; from Flow people who had spread the 'custom workflows' rumour; and YOUR help to understand that moving an interactive thingie logic from an extension onto a wiki benefits everyone, even if it makes codereview-worthy bits harder to spot (recall some people saying that none of UploadWizard's logic can sit on-wiki because of that [2])
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Gryllida/Templates/Interactive [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/UploadWizard:_scale_to_s...
Gryllida.
On Sun, 23 Feb 2014, at 20:25, Gergo Tisza wrote:
Hi all,
the Multimedia team had some discussions recently about how to make our work more transparent and more open to volunteers, and we decided to try using an open subscription mailing list for team discussions, instead of the current practice of cc-ing each member manually. These discussions are about day-to-day details of our work; sometimes feature requirements or design, sometimes technical details. The volume is typically one or two new threads per day.
We weren't sure how much members of this list would be interested in such conversations and didn't want to flood this list with mails that are not useful for most members, but we also do not want to split conversation channels unnecessarily. Please help us by telling whether you would be interested in the topics mentioned above, or would prefer if we created a new mailing list for them.
Thanks! Gergő _______________________________________________ Multimedia mailing list Multimedia@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/multimedia
On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 01:35:33AM +1100, Gryllida wrote:
Like with all other development, I find a need in more documentation of the plans and of the currently active things.
We do our best to keep track of things in the monthly reports [0], and we track individual teams on pages like the Multimedia page [1]. The full plan is available, too [2], and the engineering one is also around [3].
For example, VisualEditor has nothing to help me comprehend its code-base than the source code itself; it had only been a jamesf's line at a meeting which made me aware of the fact that the cologne blue and modern skins are now only supported by community.
You mean *code documentation*? We have that, both for VE [4] and MMV [5]. If you mean documentation of decisions by the Foundation, there are always announcements, usually they're made to the community they will affect. If you think there was a dropped ball on the skins decision, then talk about it with James or with the design community, but the Multimedia list is not the place.
Now there are some really cool beta features that only work with the vector skin. To only resource to help me is the source code. There is no UML diagram, no docs explaining which part of code does what.
We don't really do UML diagrams, true. As I said, MMV has documentation, and so *should* Popups. I can't speak for Jon's code, but they should have docs too, but *again*, this is not the list where we should be talking about this, because this is Multimedia, and MMV is the only BetaFeatures thing we are running.
...there is a lot of pages which would make use of a do-it-without-page-reload approach, such as log-in page, edit page, history page.
None of those examples fall in the Multimedia team's purview.
...there also is a need of all sister projects in wizard tools and widgets. Currently adding an article to Wiktionary is a royal pain and I could not figure out how to add an idiom with translation, without pulling hair and spending time to find another existing Wiktionary entry which is (1) a verb, (2) an idiom, and (3) has a translation. There also are gadgets for the so-called "interactive template" use-case [1] where each developer reinvents wheel a lot and the gadgets share no code but they should.
Again, while we have a wizard tool under our purview, leading the charge towards a grand architectural change and major engineering project with a relatively new (to this community) four-person team does not seem like a good use of our time. We're building processes that work for us within MMV, and we'll apply those processes to UploadWizard when we get to it.
Also, notably your RFC [6] on the subject of wizard tools has taken up very little traction especially among the developer community, and I expect it will stay that way - again, major architectural changes are hard to motivate all at once, we're way better off talking about incremental steps like adding hooks and cleaning up code structure so people can add to the codebase in its current form, either by hooking in via mw.hook or by writing patches for Gerrit.
...everything the WMF works on should have long-term impact after WMF stops working on the darn thing. The impact should be cross project.
I've had a great time using MMV in all of the projects I'm part of. Wikipedia, Wikibooks, even private wikis. I don't know why this point was included in your list of questions of why we're working on MMV, but I see this requirement as absolutely met.
... With this in mind I would personally encourage heavy collaboration of all teams to build a framework which lets people script the MediaWiki software including media viewer screen, log-in screens, article creation screens / wizard, an interactive thingie for working with templates [1] (taking an {{unblock}} request for example without having to memorize the template syntax).
Just one massive framework for *all* of that? Actually, it already exists [7]. What we should be asking for is more use of it by core and extensions, but we're already working on that, too [8].
This may need help from VisualEditor and Parsoid people; from Flow people who had spread the 'custom workflows' rumour; and YOUR help to understand that moving an interactive thingie logic from an extension onto a wiki benefits everyone, even if it makes codereview-worthy bits harder to spot (recall some people saying that none of UploadWizard's logic can sit on-wiki because of that [2])
Yeah, me. Our code is editable, it's not like you're being told you can't participate, you're just being told your work is going to be subject to review. Actually, we'll happily let you work without review via the hooks system, we just reserve the right to review where you're putting new hook calls, and how their input and output are being treated.
We welcome patches [9]. We welcome gadgets [10]. Moving code out of the existing CR system onto the wiki won't be that much gain for the amount of work it will cost, because you can *already* work on our code.
Unless you have some epic technical reason for moving UW code onto wikis, I don't see it happening.
...but seriously, what do people think about developer chatter on this list? :)
[0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_engineering_report/latest [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia [2] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:2013-2014_WMF_Plan_As_Published.pdf [3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2013-14_Goals [4] https://doc.wikimedia.org/VisualEditor/master/ [5] https://doc.wikimedia.org/MultimediaViewer/master/ [6] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/UploadWizard:_scale_to_s... [7] https://doc.wikimedia.org/mediawiki-core/master/js/#!/api/mw.hook [8] https://wikimedia.mingle.thoughtworks.com/projects/multimedia/cards/168 [9] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org [10] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Gadgets
Yes, please, more traffic. This list is currently abandoned, basically; having more "day to day stuff" will give it a sense, while not solving world famine. The subscribers interested in the old wikivideo-l-type discussions, or other higher level / less technical topics, already have Commons-l anyway.
Nemo
+1
On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, please, more traffic. This list is currently abandoned, basically; having more "day to day stuff" will give it a sense, while not solving world famine. The subscribers interested in the old wikivideo-l-type discussions, or other higher level / less technical topics, already have Commons-l anyway.
Nemo
Multimedia mailing list Multimedia@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/multimedia
Hi folks,
Thanks for your good feedback on Gergo’s proposal to discuss day-to-day details of the multimedia team's work on this list.
From what we’ve heard so far, it sounds like people are generally open to this idea, so we’d like to try this out for now.
We can reconvene in a few weeks to see how everyone likes it. If we’re all happy with this, it will save us the trouble of starting another list. If it’s too much information for some folks, we could move some of the more detailed technical discussions to another list.
Overall, this is good timing for increasing activity on this multimedia list, as we prepare to a wider release of Media Viewer and our team is now fully staffed. (We didn't use this list as much in recent months because we were still staffing up and our products were in early stages of development, with lots of known bugs.)
Now that we are up to speed as a team, we look forward to discussing our work with you more, and getting more feedback from community partners at each step of the way.
Keep in mind that some of our emails may be pretty trivial and will often not deserve a response. And we may not always be able to engage in extended discussions about every small feature, so we can save our scarce development time for getting the actual work done :) But even if we can’t respond to everything, everyone will have higher visibility into our work, and this will enable us to have more productive conversations during IRC chats, so we can focus on core issues, rather than getting everyone caught up.
I will post an update about Media Viewer tomorrow, to give everyone a sense of our progress so far and next steps for this product. In the meantime, you are welcome to scan the log of Friday’s IRC chat to get a general idea of our current course. (1)
Onward!
Fabrice
(1) Media Viewer IRC Chat Log: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2014-02-21-mm
On Feb 24, 2014, at 11:57 AM, Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com wrote:
+1
On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, please, more traffic. This list is currently abandoned, basically; having more "day to day stuff" will give it a sense, while not solving world famine. The subscribers interested in the old wikivideo-l-type discussions, or other higher level / less technical topics, already have Commons-l anyway.
Nemo
Multimedia mailing list Multimedia@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/multimedia
-- Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617 529 4266
Multimedia mailing list Multimedia@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/multimedia
_______________________________
On Feb 23, 2014, at 4:36 AM, Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl wrote:
You can start by posting a weekly (activity) report like the Wikidata team does.
On Feb 23, 2014, at 2:40 AM, Amanpreet Singh amanpreet.iitr2013@gmail.com wrote:
Hi! I personally feel it would be great to get an insight of Multimedia viewer's work as sometime it creates confusion for volunteers that what you are currently doing and plan to do.
There should be definitely a new mailing list as the one who want to know your discussions will surely join it.
Cheers!
Gergo Tisza schreef op 23-2-2014 10:25:
Hi all,
the Multimedia team had some discussions recently about how to make our work more transparent and more open to volunteers, and we decided to try using an open subscription mailing list for team discussions, instead of the current practice of cc-ing each member manually. These discussions are about day-to-day details of our work; sometimes feature requirements or design, sometimes technical details. The volume is typically one or two new threads per day.
We weren't sure how much members of this list would be interested in such conversations and didn't want to flood this list with mails that are not useful for most members, but we also do not want to split conversation channels unnecessarily. Please help us by telling whether you would be interested in the topics mentioned above, or would prefer if we created a new mailing list for them.
Thanks! Gergő
multimedia@lists.wikimedia.org