Yesterday, on Jimbo's talkpage, section titled "Sexism on Wikipedia", an editor wrote: "... Apparently it's very easy to construct this narrative of 'we have a problem, yes we do!' with disregard to rational analysis. It all has a very shallow American activist feel to it." This infuriated me on multiple levels and I left a response on Jimbo's page:  "This issue may be near and dear to many -- including those who keep mute for fear of retribution -- so unless someone can substantiate that the issue is 'shallow', I'd say to avoid referring to it in that way. I'm also unclear why this has an 'American activist' feel to it, but I haven't tried to figure out who lives where. Yes, Lightbreather's examples appear to be written by Americans, but in my mind, the issue isn't American-centric at all."  

Then I read the post on this list about the anxiety expressed by Latina women and it underscored to me that this isn't an "American" issue.  Where you sit when you edit doesn't matter as we're part of a virtual community. Global issue, right??

-Rosie
User:Rosiestep


On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 5:00 AM, <gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
Send Gendergap mailing list submissions to
        gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
        https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
        gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
        gendergap-owner@lists.wikimedia.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Gendergap digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Kathleen McCook)
   2. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (LtPowers)
   3. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Jeremy Baron)
   4. Discussion on Jimbo Wales talk page (Carol Moore dc)
   5. Tweet on Paula England (Kathleen McCook)
   6. Re: Tweet on Paula England (Sarah Stierch)
   7. Re: Tweet on Paula England (Kathleen McCook)
   8. Sessions at Wikimania related to gender gap (Netha Hussain)
   9. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Pine W)
  10. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Michael J. Lowrey)
  11. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Pine W)
  12. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Michael J. Lowrey)
  13. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Sarah Stierch)
  14. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Sarah Stierch)
  15. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Pine W)
  16. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Michael J. Lowrey)
  17. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Janine Starykowicz)
  18. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Pine W)
  19. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Janine Starykowicz)
  20. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (Pine W)
  21. Re: Sexualized environment on Commons (A. Mani)
  22. Re: Tweet on Paula England (Tom Morris)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 09:22:28 -0400
From: Kathleen McCook <klmccook@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CA+ETL-YX_CJQ-bvv-5kiaAcm85zn-KhHbVq3Hu2pKBV_rAJ3Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Getting women to stick around...

I had a class of 25. About 20 women and 5 men. The women, especially Latina
women,  expressed much anxiety over various treatments--all over the map.
Esp. comments and tone of talk pages.Lack of politeness and common
courtesies.
Today, a year later, only 2 (of 20) women are editing, but the men have
become engaged contributors.

Should we tell people at the outset that this is sort of an Outward Bound
experience? Survival only of the thick skinned? I do believe this is too
bad. As a teacher if I treated students the way Wikipedians treat new
contributors, I would be sent for continuing education. Most people want to
edit to contribute, not to be wrangled to the mat.
Too many women who begin to edit are made to feel belittled, stupid and
small. This is crazy. So much talent and good will is nattered away.


--Kathleen.

Kathleen de la Peña McCook
Distinguished University Professor of Librarianship
USF/SI: http://si.usf.edu/faculty/kmccook/
Academia.edu: https://usf.academia.edu/KathleendelaPe%C3%B1aMcCook
Library Thing:: http://www.librarything.com/catalog/klmccook/allcollections


On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 2:04 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Keilana,
>
> J-mo discussed similar thoughs in the presentation videos that I just sent
> to some of the other email lists. Perhaps you could brainstorm ideas  with
> him and other interested people at Wikimania?
>
> Pine
> On Aug 1, 2014 10:37 PM, "Keilana" <keilanawiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> To briefly go back to what Sarah and Marie have said, I do find that in
>> person hand-holding and social support are the most effective factors in
>> getting women to stick around. I don't know how to translate that from the
>> real-world environment I teach newbies in to the virtual environment of new
>> users' talk pages. I'd love to brainstorm something in that vein, though. :)
>>
>> -Emily
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:40 PM, A. Mani <a.mani.cms@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Carol Moore dc
>>> <carolmooredc@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> > Then I looked at this political poster image
>>> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Courageous_Cunts.jpg
>>> > which leads to this site http://courageouscunts.com/
>>>
>>> I think nobody has bothered to write much on the movement.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courageous_Cunts
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labia_pride_movement
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Labia_Project has no content
>>>
>>> Contrast that with the content on this site:
>>> http://largelabiaproject.org
>>>
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> A. Mani
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A. Mani
>>> [Last_Name. First_Name Format]
>>> CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS
>>> HomePage: http://www.logicamani.in
>>> Blog: http://logicamani.blogspot.in/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gendergap mailing list
>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/0cb4fe2c/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 11:01:40 -0400
From: "LtPowers" <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com>
To: "'Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase
        theparticipation        of women within Wikimedia projects.'"
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID: <535BA31DB25A40E8927F4FBD2A072C82@POWERSPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I'm just blue-skying here, but wouldn't it be great if we could have a
little window pop-up when someone clicks the edit button for the first time
that says "Hey! Thanks for looking into editing Wiki____!  It's easy but it
can be confusing sometimes. Would you like to chat with a fellow volunteer
who can answer your questions?"



And then there could be a little chat window allowing real-time
communication while the editor walks through her first edit.





                        Powers  &8^]





-----Original Message-----
From: Keilana [mailto:keilanawiki@gmail.com]
Sent: 02 August 2014 01:37
To: Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
participationof women within Wikimedia projects.
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons



To briefly go back to what Sarah and Marie have said, I do find that in
person hand-holding and social support are the most effective factors in
getting women to stick around. I don't know how to translate that from the
real-world environment I teach newbies in to the virtual environment of new
users' talk pages. I'd love to brainstorm something in that vein, though. :)



-Emily



On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:40 PM, A. Mani <a.mani.cms@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Carol Moore dc
<carolmooredc@verizon.net> wrote:
> Then I looked at this political poster image
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Courageous_Cunts.jpg
> which leads to this site http://courageouscunts.com/

I think nobody has bothered to write much on the movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courageous_Cunts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labia_pride_movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Labia_Project has no content

Contrast that with the content on this site: http://largelabiaproject.org


Best

A. Mani



A. Mani
[Last_Name. First_Name Format]
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS
HomePage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: http://logicamani.blogspot.in/


_______________________________________________
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/b10df27b/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 15:41:53 +0000
From: Jeremy Baron <jeremy@tuxmachine.com>
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CAE-2OCbeHg2DDYdo7_-OzfJVRpi3VhPbVswFDR2zrbv4ajU_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Aug 2, 2014 11:01 AM, "LtPowers" <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> And then there could be a little chat window allowing real-time
communication while the editor walks through her first edit.

[originally didn't realize who you were replying to… also haven't read the
whole thread yet]

That is technically feasible. Maybe would have new implications for privacy
(including WMF privacy policy). Unless the realtime chats were publicly
logged. (then same privacy as existing teahouse, etc)

Essentially would be a more interactive version of teahouse? (i.e. shorter
wait for a reply and you're paired with someone that's known to be
available at that moment) would be a part of teahouse?

How would you staff it? Shifts?

Anyway, that does nothing for the case Kathleen describes. 25 people
(20f:5m) in a class and everyone getting that introduction to all things
wiki. Then 7 stay active for a year including all the men. (and only 2 of
the 20 women)

I'm leaning towards thinking we as a community should (for now) focus more
on the retention gap than the recruitment gap. Then we're not recruiting
people just to (mostly) lose them in a month or two. But would be
interested to hear thoughts on that from someone with a more rigorous
analysis.

-Jeremy (jeremyb)

P.S. http://www.onthemedia.org/story/31-race-swap-experiment/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/0df8d438/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2014 13:52:51 -0400
From: Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Gendergap] Discussion on Jimbo Wales talk page
Message-ID: <53DD2573.2010309@verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Rebooted_discussion
This whole topic is going hot on heave on his talk page, starting with
his proposal which I mention in my response on the proposalbelow:

    What if it was far more limited: /WMF hires mediators to do
    mediation and to train and monitor volunteer mediators. Mediation
    would be voluntary but it is likely Admins and Arbitrators would not
    look well on those who refused to engage in mediation or obviously
    did not take it seriously once they agreed to it./
    I was in one mediation around 2007-8 on a really controversial
    topic. The mediator was inexperienced and had to start over at one
    point; but it still was extremely effective and greatly diminished
    edit warring among a few editors over several articles. However
    after that I couldn't find mediators for a one or two issues that
    had been accepted for mediation because no moderators were
    available, so I didn't try again for a few years. When I did four
    people wanted it; two refused on questionable grounds. The issue
    went to arbitration but Arbitrators didn't take the mediation issue
    seriously, perhaps because it was known that there aren't many
    mediators or they aren't effective.

Of course it's been ignored, but there are some thoughtful comments
there. And a lot of drama with a couple guys who defend their right to
be "uncivil" quitting.

While I was on my best behavior with constructive comments throughout, I
did have to say at one point that those who support incivility should at
least not have a double standard against women being equally uncivil.
"What good for the goose is good for the gander."

Later my roommate explained to me the gander is the MALE not the
female!  So it took me 66 years to figure it out. Maybe others are
similarly confused??  I guess from now on just to make myself perfectly
clear I'll say "Whats good for the male gander is good for the female
goose."

Ai, yi, yi!!

CM


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/b1ba7c8a/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 16:19:51 -0400
From: Kathleen McCook <klmccook@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Gendergap] Tweet on Paula England
Message-ID:
        <CA+ETL-bYjUY7tGV-riC+rrXzSO+_k4Jb8U6h_2NJVi+0sPb3pw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I saw this tweet Philip Cohen. from
https://twitter.com/familyunequal/status/495662217149546496



​Attention, gender sociologists: Paula England has no Wikipedia page.
Someone should make one before she becomes president of @ASAnews
<https://twitter.com/ASAnews>.​

========
What do we do when someone thinks someone should have a page? Is there a
place he can request?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/979c06c1/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 13:23:37 -0700
From: Sarah Stierch <sarah.stierch@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Tweet on Paula England
Message-ID:
        <CAKiGLfoijvXMzsFVcgjwy_SofcF+woTVpx3GsLdbbU=9e_RmYA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

There is a place for requesting (I can't post it right now) but it will
take less time for someone here or via Twitter to make a stub with multiple
reliable sources of course.

But seriously - the requested article pages on Wikipedia are not a hot spot
for article creation...

Sarah
On Aug 2, 2014 1:20 PM, "Kathleen McCook" <klmccook@gmail.com> wrote:

> I saw this tweet Philip Cohen. from
> https://twitter.com/familyunequal/status/495662217149546496
>
>
>
> ​Attention, gender sociologists: Paula England has no Wikipedia page.
> Someone should make one before she becomes president of @ASAnews
> <https://twitter.com/ASAnews>.​
>
> ========
> What do we do when someone thinks someone should have a page? Is there a
> place he can request?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/0da0cd39/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 16:26:28 -0400
From: Kathleen McCook <klmccook@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Tweet on Paula England
Message-ID:
        <CA+ETL-bX_te1z-R-uNWBtPr6uLosc8D1ifQ5nX+H7bQz_3gs7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I'll suggest that to him.


On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Sarah Stierch <sarah.stierch@gmail.com>
wrote:

> There is a place for requesting (I can't post it right now) but it will
> take less time for someone here or via Twitter to make a stub with multiple
> reliable sources of course.
>
> But seriously - the requested article pages on Wikipedia are not a hot
> spot for article creation...
>
> Sarah
> On Aug 2, 2014 1:20 PM, "Kathleen McCook" <klmccook@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I saw this tweet Philip Cohen. from
>> https://twitter.com/familyunequal/status/495662217149546496
>>
>>
>>
>> ​Attention, gender sociologists: Paula England has no Wikipedia page.
>> Someone should make one before she becomes president of @ASAnews
>> <https://twitter.com/ASAnews>.​
>>
>> ========
>> What do we do when someone thinks someone should have a page? Is there a
>> place he can request?
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/65cb042b/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 03:21:05 +0530
From: Netha Hussain <nethahussain@gmail.com>
To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Gendergap] Sessions at Wikimania related to gender gap
Message-ID:
        <CACP3XfpUeAh5EpgcXZu0dKgNe3doBSNrrwZY3skzLeKKzOzAhA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi all,

 I have put together a list of sessions which may be relevant to the
members of this list. If you are going to Wikimania in London (Aug 6-10),
you might find these sessions interesting :

*
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Creative_Ways_to_Alienate_Women_Online:_A_How-to_Guide_for_Wikipedians
*
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Systemic_Bias_Workshop_Development_-_IEG_update
*
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Where%27s_the_T_in_Wikimedia_Diversity
*
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Internet_skills_and_the_gender_gap
*
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Diversity_Workshop:_Gender_gap_strategy_into_action
*
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Gender_and_Beyond:_Building_Diversity_in_the_Digital_Space

And if you are a woman, sign up for the Wikiwomen's lunch, too! :
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWomen%27s_Lunch

-N






--
Netha Hussain
Student of Medicine and Surgery
Govt. Medical College, Kozhikode
Blogs :
*nethahussain.blogspot.com
<http://nethahussain.blogspot.com>swethaambari.wordpress.com
<http://swethaambari.wordpress.com>*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140803/80463ccc/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 17:29:34 -0700
From: Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CAF=dyJiumXiLKNtUdgAU=VCs3Tk9fUX1h2NZGXFu7fAs3nT-bA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

We already have #wikipedia-en-help which is remarkably good for a volunteer
help project. Links to join that IRC channel could be offered in multiple
places. Other languages may have similar channels.

Pine
On Aug 2, 2014 8:42 AM, "Jeremy Baron" <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:

> On Aug 2, 2014 11:01 AM, "LtPowers" <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com>
> wrote:
> > And then there could be a little chat window allowing real-time
> communication while the editor walks through her first edit.
>
> [originally didn't realize who you were replying to… also haven't read the
> whole thread yet]
>
> That is technically feasible. Maybe would have new implications for
> privacy (including WMF privacy policy). Unless the realtime chats were
> publicly logged. (then same privacy as existing teahouse, etc)
>
> Essentially would be a more interactive version of teahouse? (i.e. shorter
> wait for a reply and you're paired with someone that's known to be
> available at that moment) would be a part of teahouse?
>
> How would you staff it? Shifts?
>
> Anyway, that does nothing for the case Kathleen describes. 25 people
> (20f:5m) in a class and everyone getting that introduction to all things
> wiki. Then 7 stay active for a year including all the men. (and only 2 of
> the 20 women)
>
> I'm leaning towards thinking we as a community should (for now) focus more
> on the retention gap than the recruitment gap. Then we're not recruiting
> people just to (mostly) lose them in a month or two. But would be
> interested to hear thoughts on that from someone with a more rigorous
> analysis.
>
> -Jeremy (jeremyb)
>
> P.S. http://www.onthemedia.org/story/31-race-swap-experiment/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/30e57cd6/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 20:38:20 -0500
From: "Michael J. Lowrey" <orangemike@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CAMXq-ReMXcHZBobfA=u0E2m0e6OjV-bb2t+AHKEm-banmavGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

IRC is almost embarrassingly old technology; Wikimedia Foundation
projects are the only place I've seen it mentioned in the last five
years or more.


On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> We already have #wikipedia-en-help which is remarkably good for a volunteer
> help project. Links to join that IRC channel could be offered in multiple
> places. Other languages may have similar channels.
>
> Pine
>
> On Aug 2, 2014 8:42 AM, "Jeremy Baron" <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Aug 2, 2014 11:01 AM, "LtPowers" <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>> > And then there could be a little chat window allowing real-time
>> > communication while the editor walks through her first edit.
>>
>> [originally didn't realize who you were replying to… also haven't read the
>> whole thread yet]
>>
>> That is technically feasible. Maybe would have new implications for
>> privacy (including WMF privacy policy). Unless the realtime chats were
>> publicly logged. (then same privacy as existing teahouse, etc)
>>
>> Essentially would be a more interactive version of teahouse? (i.e. shorter
>> wait for a reply and you're paired with someone that's known to be available
>> at that moment) would be a part of teahouse?
>>
>> How would you staff it? Shifts?
>>
>> Anyway, that does nothing for the case Kathleen describes. 25 people
>> (20f:5m) in a class and everyone getting that introduction to all things
>> wiki. Then 7 stay active for a year including all the men. (and only 2 of
>> the 20 women)
>>
>> I'm leaning towards thinking we as a community should (for now) focus more
>> on the retention gap than the recruitment gap. Then we're not recruiting
>> people just to (mostly) lose them in a month or two. But would be interested
>> to hear thoughts on that from someone with a more rigorous analysis.
>>
>> -Jeremy (jeremyb)
>>
>> P.S. http://www.onthemedia.org/story/31-race-swap-experiment/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>



--
Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey

"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
and clothes."
     --  Desiderius Erasmus



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 18:54:48 -0700
From: Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CAF=dyJhhAASFq193Uy74W34ZoVsXw=RaC1xfhYgUWc2d-v-+yg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

You might be surprised how widely and how much Freenode is used for open
source projects. The Blender main and dev channels were even more active
than English Wikipedia's equivalents when I visited a few days ago.
Pine
On Aug 2, 2014 6:38 PM, "Michael J. Lowrey" <orangemike@gmail.com> wrote:

> IRC is almost embarrassingly old technology; Wikimedia Foundation
> projects are the only place I've seen it mentioned in the last five
> years or more.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We already have #wikipedia-en-help which is remarkably good for a
> volunteer
> > help project. Links to join that IRC channel could be offered in multiple
> > places. Other languages may have similar channels.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> > On Aug 2, 2014 8:42 AM, "Jeremy Baron" <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Aug 2, 2014 11:01 AM, "LtPowers" <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > And then there could be a little chat window allowing real-time
> >> > communication while the editor walks through her first edit.
> >>
> >> [originally didn't realize who you were replying to… also haven't read
> the
> >> whole thread yet]
> >>
> >> That is technically feasible. Maybe would have new implications for
> >> privacy (including WMF privacy policy). Unless the realtime chats were
> >> publicly logged. (then same privacy as existing teahouse, etc)
> >>
> >> Essentially would be a more interactive version of teahouse? (i.e.
> shorter
> >> wait for a reply and you're paired with someone that's known to be
> available
> >> at that moment) would be a part of teahouse?
> >>
> >> How would you staff it? Shifts?
> >>
> >> Anyway, that does nothing for the case Kathleen describes. 25 people
> >> (20f:5m) in a class and everyone getting that introduction to all things
> >> wiki. Then 7 stay active for a year including all the men. (and only 2
> of
> >> the 20 women)
> >>
> >> I'm leaning towards thinking we as a community should (for now) focus
> more
> >> on the retention gap than the recruitment gap. Then we're not recruiting
> >> people just to (mostly) lose them in a month or two. But would be
> interested
> >> to hear thoughts on that from someone with a more rigorous analysis.
> >>
> >> -Jeremy (jeremyb)
> >>
> >> P.S. http://www.onthemedia.org/story/31-race-swap-experiment/
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Gendergap mailing list
> >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gendergap mailing list
> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
>
> "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
> and clothes."
>      --  Desiderius Erasmus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/1dd2b09b/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 21:02:54 -0500
From: "Michael J. Lowrey" <orangemike@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CAMXq-Re6qrp-LkweY-GwnpbSYvXs9PgK-9ckqyJKHNY6bFGWew@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

That's exactly my point, Pine. This kind of inside-baseball geekery is
so much Choctaw to the ordinary new editor we are trying to recruit
and retain, people more likely to be using Pinterest or Skype or
Ravelry to communicate with peers and mentors.


On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:54 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> You might be surprised how widely and how much Freenode is used for open
> source projects. The Blender main and dev channels were even more active
> than English Wikipedia's equivalents when I visited a few days ago.
> Pine
>
> On Aug 2, 2014 6:38 PM, "Michael J. Lowrey" <orangemike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> IRC is almost embarrassingly old technology; Wikimedia Foundation
>> projects are the only place I've seen it mentioned in the last five
>> years or more.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > We already have #wikipedia-en-help which is remarkably good for a
>> > volunteer
>> > help project. Links to join that IRC channel could be offered in
>> > multiple
>> > places. Other languages may have similar channels.
>> >
>> > Pine
>> >
>> > On Aug 2, 2014 8:42 AM, "Jeremy Baron" <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Aug 2, 2014 11:01 AM, "LtPowers" <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > And then there could be a little chat window allowing real-time
>> >> > communication while the editor walks through her first edit.
>> >>
>> >> [originally didn't realize who you were replying to… also haven't read
>> >> the
>> >> whole thread yet]
>> >>
>> >> That is technically feasible. Maybe would have new implications for
>> >> privacy (including WMF privacy policy). Unless the realtime chats were
>> >> publicly logged. (then same privacy as existing teahouse, etc)
>> >>
>> >> Essentially would be a more interactive version of teahouse? (i.e.
>> >> shorter
>> >> wait for a reply and you're paired with someone that's known to be
>> >> available
>> >> at that moment) would be a part of teahouse?
>> >>
>> >> How would you staff it? Shifts?
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, that does nothing for the case Kathleen describes. 25 people
>> >> (20f:5m) in a class and everyone getting that introduction to all
>> >> things
>> >> wiki. Then 7 stay active for a year including all the men. (and only 2
>> >> of
>> >> the 20 women)
>> >>
>> >> I'm leaning towards thinking we as a community should (for now) focus
>> >> more
>> >> on the retention gap than the recruitment gap. Then we're not
>> >> recruiting
>> >> people just to (mostly) lose them in a month or two. But would be
>> >> interested
>> >> to hear thoughts on that from someone with a more rigorous analysis.
>> >>
>> >> -Jeremy (jeremyb)
>> >>
>> >> P.S. http://www.onthemedia.org/story/31-race-swap-experiment/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Gendergap mailing list
>> >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Gendergap mailing list
>> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
>>
>> "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
>> and clothes."
>>      --  Desiderius Erasmus
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>



--
Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey

"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
and clothes."
     --  Desiderius Erasmus



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 19:04:09 -0700
From: Sarah Stierch <sarah.stierch@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CAKiGLfo80A7747kPCxtJZyRySRD7_gqDjVR+rWEjXq__m1WqTg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I have spent years trying to figure all of this out. I feel like I rehash
this question over and over again. Every year. Perhaps if I had a grant
from the government I could sit around and figure it out finally ;-)

1. Training women to be trainers is important. After I did that with some
folks after the first WikiWomen's History Month event, now those women do
their own events.

2. I did an evaluation of events I've done. No, they don't retain people,
except the "experienced usual suspects" - newbies rarely edit after the
event and generally do it AT events. I've seen it in the 20+ events I have
now facilitated internationally. I use Wikidata to track their
contributions and surveys. No dice. People do it at events. Read it:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Evaluation/Library/Case_studies/WWHM
 oh and you can read the proof in the puddin' re: edit-a-thons and
workshops here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Evaluation/Library/Edit-a-thons AND
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Evaluation/Library/Editing_workshops

3. Capturing people through "IRC" is a silly old school way of thinking.
Sorry dudes. When I first got "hardcore" into the community here in
Wikimedia I was SHOCKED that people were still using IRC. I used IRC in
1991. Not in 2011. Only uber geeks use that stuff - the average person
doesn't. Seriously.

4. Pop up windows - interesting idea of an experiment. Even though I hit
the "x" every time one of those things pops up when I'm using the ATT
website among a million others. I ignore them, they look like spam. But
that's just me, maybe others do use them.

5. Better cheat sheets are needed. People complain about how cluttered and
overwhelming they are. Just like our online help pages. They're full of
Wikipediababblespeak and not "to the point."

6. More guides on how to do events. I have developed checklists and so
forth for people. I know how much Wikimedians hate writing documentation,
but honestly, I know for a fact that Wikipedians in Residency's have
started because of the case study I wrote, I know for a fact GLAMs have
done content donations because of the case studies I write, and I know for
a fact that people have ready the case study I wrote about edit-a-thons and
learned from it and done it. I make powerpoints and post them and encourage
people to reuse them, and they do.

So making more shit for people to use that is awesome and usable and
quality and not full of babblespeak and such is helpful.

Those books that the education folks made were a great start, but those
appear to be specifically for education - I've never seen them at
edit-a-thons, but, I don't go to them very often these days.

Sarah Stierch



On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:

> You might be surprised how widely and how much Freenode is used for open
> source projects. The Blender main and dev channels were even more active
> than English Wikipedia's equivalents when I visited a few days ago.
> Pine
> On Aug 2, 2014 6:38 PM, "Michael J. Lowrey" <orangemike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> IRC is almost embarrassingly old technology; Wikimedia Foundation
>> projects are the only place I've seen it mentioned in the last five
>> years or more.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > We already have #wikipedia-en-help which is remarkably good for a
>> volunteer
>> > help project. Links to join that IRC channel could be offered in
>> multiple
>> > places. Other languages may have similar channels.
>> >
>> > Pine
>> >
>> > On Aug 2, 2014 8:42 AM, "Jeremy Baron" <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Aug 2, 2014 11:01 AM, "LtPowers" <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > And then there could be a little chat window allowing real-time
>> >> > communication while the editor walks through her first edit.
>> >>
>> >> [originally didn't realize who you were replying to… also haven't read
>> the
>> >> whole thread yet]
>> >>
>> >> That is technically feasible. Maybe would have new implications for
>> >> privacy (including WMF privacy policy). Unless the realtime chats were
>> >> publicly logged. (then same privacy as existing teahouse, etc)
>> >>
>> >> Essentially would be a more interactive version of teahouse? (i.e.
>> shorter
>> >> wait for a reply and you're paired with someone that's known to be
>> available
>> >> at that moment) would be a part of teahouse?
>> >>
>> >> How would you staff it? Shifts?
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, that does nothing for the case Kathleen describes. 25 people
>> >> (20f:5m) in a class and everyone getting that introduction to all
>> things
>> >> wiki. Then 7 stay active for a year including all the men. (and only 2
>> of
>> >> the 20 women)
>> >>
>> >> I'm leaning towards thinking we as a community should (for now) focus
>> more
>> >> on the retention gap than the recruitment gap. Then we're not
>> recruiting
>> >> people just to (mostly) lose them in a month or two. But would be
>> interested
>> >> to hear thoughts on that from someone with a more rigorous analysis.
>> >>
>> >> -Jeremy (jeremyb)
>> >>
>> >> P.S. http://www.onthemedia.org/story/31-race-swap-experiment/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Gendergap mailing list
>> >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Gendergap mailing list
>> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
>>
>> "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
>> and clothes."
>>      --  Desiderius Erasmus
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>


--

Sarah Stierch

-----

Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.

www.sarahstierch.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/e9fe5a2f/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 19:06:28 -0700
From: Sarah Stierch <sarah.stierch@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CAKiGLfqv3WqCmpCE81QUvc_+Dk80NMzA2=BvD837G5ry7N4wSg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Exactly. IRC is for the old school and ubergeek. And as Sue has said in the
past - we're only going to "retain" specific types of people to be long
term editors (ubergeeks like us) but, if we can figure out a solution to
help out the "average joe/sphine" editor...

then huzzah. That's what the Teahouse helped do, but what is the next step
to supporting people who haven't quite passed the barrier to "editing"
Wikipedia.

And expecting people to want to "join the ranks" through OTRS emails surely
isn't the ultimate goal..

-Sarah


On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Michael J. Lowrey <orangemike@gmail.com>
wrote:

> That's exactly my point, Pine. This kind of inside-baseball geekery is
> so much Choctaw to the ordinary new editor we are trying to recruit
> and retain, people more likely to be using Pinterest or Skype or
> Ravelry to communicate with peers and mentors.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:54 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You might be surprised how widely and how much Freenode is used for open
> > source projects. The Blender main and dev channels were even more active
> > than English Wikipedia's equivalents when I visited a few days ago.
> > Pine
> >
> > On Aug 2, 2014 6:38 PM, "Michael J. Lowrey" <orangemike@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> IRC is almost embarrassingly old technology; Wikimedia Foundation
> >> projects are the only place I've seen it mentioned in the last five
> >> years or more.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > We already have #wikipedia-en-help which is remarkably good for a
> >> > volunteer
> >> > help project. Links to join that IRC channel could be offered in
> >> > multiple
> >> > places. Other languages may have similar channels.
> >> >
> >> > Pine
> >> >
> >> > On Aug 2, 2014 8:42 AM, "Jeremy Baron" <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Aug 2, 2014 11:01 AM, "LtPowers" <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > And then there could be a little chat window allowing real-time
> >> >> > communication while the editor walks through her first edit.
> >> >>
> >> >> [originally didn't realize who you were replying to… also haven't
> read
> >> >> the
> >> >> whole thread yet]
> >> >>
> >> >> That is technically feasible. Maybe would have new implications for
> >> >> privacy (including WMF privacy policy). Unless the realtime chats
> were
> >> >> publicly logged. (then same privacy as existing teahouse, etc)
> >> >>
> >> >> Essentially would be a more interactive version of teahouse? (i.e.
> >> >> shorter
> >> >> wait for a reply and you're paired with someone that's known to be
> >> >> available
> >> >> at that moment) would be a part of teahouse?
> >> >>
> >> >> How would you staff it? Shifts?
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyway, that does nothing for the case Kathleen describes. 25 people
> >> >> (20f:5m) in a class and everyone getting that introduction to all
> >> >> things
> >> >> wiki. Then 7 stay active for a year including all the men. (and only
> 2
> >> >> of
> >> >> the 20 women)
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm leaning towards thinking we as a community should (for now) focus
> >> >> more
> >> >> on the retention gap than the recruitment gap. Then we're not
> >> >> recruiting
> >> >> people just to (mostly) lose them in a month or two. But would be
> >> >> interested
> >> >> to hear thoughts on that from someone with a more rigorous analysis.
> >> >>
> >> >> -Jeremy (jeremyb)
> >> >>
> >> >> P.S. http://www.onthemedia.org/story/31-race-swap-experiment/
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Gendergap mailing list
> >> >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Gendergap mailing list
> >> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
> >>
> >> "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
> >> and clothes."
> >>      --  Desiderius Erasmus
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Gendergap mailing list
> >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gendergap mailing list
> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
>
> "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
> and clothes."
>      --  Desiderius Erasmus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>



--

Sarah Stierch

-----

Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.

www.sarahstierch.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/85245867/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 19:19:02 -0700
From: Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CAF=dyJg4J4WKWHe5GZaTimhZq5u0uK6KkE-FLMjQZYjHx9sswg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I think we are talking past each other. The issue I responded to was about
live help,  which we offer, is used extensively for English Wikipedia, and
should be respected. Advertising the existing service to more editors is
surely better than not doing so. If we are talking about longer-term
alternative help systems then I agree that we should explore options like
Pintrest which seem to be popular with less technical audiences.

Pine
On Aug 2, 2014 7:06 PM, "Sarah Stierch" <sarah.stierch@gmail.com> wrote:

> Exactly. IRC is for the old school and ubergeek. And as Sue has said in
> the past - we're only going to "retain" specific types of people to be long
> term editors (ubergeeks like us) but, if we can figure out a solution to
> help out the "average joe/sphine" editor...
>
> then huzzah. That's what the Teahouse helped do, but what is the next step
> to supporting people who haven't quite passed the barrier to "editing"
> Wikipedia.
>
> And expecting people to want to "join the ranks" through OTRS emails
> surely isn't the ultimate goal..
>
> -Sarah
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Michael J. Lowrey <orangemike@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> That's exactly my point, Pine. This kind of inside-baseball geekery is
>> so much Choctaw to the ordinary new editor we are trying to recruit
>> and retain, people more likely to be using Pinterest or Skype or
>> Ravelry to communicate with peers and mentors.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:54 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > You might be surprised how widely and how much Freenode is used for open
>> > source projects. The Blender main and dev channels were even more active
>> > than English Wikipedia's equivalents when I visited a few days ago.
>> > Pine
>> >
>> > On Aug 2, 2014 6:38 PM, "Michael J. Lowrey" <orangemike@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> IRC is almost embarrassingly old technology; Wikimedia Foundation
>> >> projects are the only place I've seen it mentioned in the last five
>> >> years or more.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > We already have #wikipedia-en-help which is remarkably good for a
>> >> > volunteer
>> >> > help project. Links to join that IRC channel could be offered in
>> >> > multiple
>> >> > places. Other languages may have similar channels.
>> >> >
>> >> > Pine
>> >> >
>> >> > On Aug 2, 2014 8:42 AM, "Jeremy Baron" <jeremy@tuxmachine.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Aug 2, 2014 11:01 AM, "LtPowers" <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com
>> >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > And then there could be a little chat window allowing real-time
>> >> >> > communication while the editor walks through her first edit.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> [originally didn't realize who you were replying to… also haven't
>> read
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> whole thread yet]
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That is technically feasible. Maybe would have new implications for
>> >> >> privacy (including WMF privacy policy). Unless the realtime chats
>> were
>> >> >> publicly logged. (then same privacy as existing teahouse, etc)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Essentially would be a more interactive version of teahouse? (i.e.
>> >> >> shorter
>> >> >> wait for a reply and you're paired with someone that's known to be
>> >> >> available
>> >> >> at that moment) would be a part of teahouse?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> How would you staff it? Shifts?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyway, that does nothing for the case Kathleen describes. 25 people
>> >> >> (20f:5m) in a class and everyone getting that introduction to all
>> >> >> things
>> >> >> wiki. Then 7 stay active for a year including all the men. (and
>> only 2
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the 20 women)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm leaning towards thinking we as a community should (for now)
>> focus
>> >> >> more
>> >> >> on the retention gap than the recruitment gap. Then we're not
>> >> >> recruiting
>> >> >> people just to (mostly) lose them in a month or two. But would be
>> >> >> interested
>> >> >> to hear thoughts on that from someone with a more rigorous analysis.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -Jeremy (jeremyb)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> P.S. http://www.onthemedia.org/story/31-race-swap-experiment/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Gendergap mailing list
>> >> >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Gendergap mailing list
>> >> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
>> >>
>> >> "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
>> >> and clothes."
>> >>      --  Desiderius Erasmus
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Gendergap mailing list
>> >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Gendergap mailing list
>> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
>>
>> "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
>> and clothes."
>>      --  Desiderius Erasmus
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sarah Stierch
>
> -----
>
> Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.
>
> www.sarahstierch.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/b9d2a581/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 21:20:20 -0500
From: "Michael J. Lowrey" <orangemike@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CAMXq-ReV=upD0eCy9yCnhWtNYrPbRTUTrMa_quqWYeodkmLqXA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Thank you, Sarah. I hope that subjects like this will be part of the
discussion in Washington, whether I get to go or not. (I have applied,
but I'm an old white male so….)


On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Sarah Stierch <sarah.stierch@gmail.com> wrote:
> Exactly. IRC is for the old school and ubergeek. And as Sue has said in the
> past - we're only going to "retain" specific types of people to be long term
> editors (ubergeeks like us) but, if we can figure out a solution to help out
> the "average joe/sphine" editor...
>
> then huzzah. That's what the Teahouse helped do, but what is the next step
> to supporting people who haven't quite passed the barrier to "editing"
> Wikipedia.
>
> And expecting people to want to "join the ranks" through OTRS emails surely
> isn't the ultimate goal..
>
> -Sarah
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Michael J. Lowrey <orangemike@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> That's exactly my point, Pine. This kind of inside-baseball geekery is
>> so much Choctaw to the ordinary new editor we are trying to recruit
>> and retain, people more likely to be using Pinterest or Skype or
>> Ravelry to communicate with peers and mentors.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:54 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > You might be surprised how widely and how much Freenode is used for open
>> > source projects. The Blender main and dev channels were even more active
>> > than English Wikipedia's equivalents when I visited a few days ago.
>> > Pine
>> >
>> > On Aug 2, 2014 6:38 PM, "Michael J. Lowrey" <orangemike@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> IRC is almost embarrassingly old technology; Wikimedia Foundation
>> >> projects are the only place I've seen it mentioned in the last five
>> >> years or more.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > We already have #wikipedia-en-help which is remarkably good for a
>> >> > volunteer
>> >> > help project. Links to join that IRC channel could be offered in
>> >> > multiple
>> >> > places. Other languages may have similar channels.
>> >> >
>> >> > Pine
>> >> >
>> >> > On Aug 2, 2014 8:42 AM, "Jeremy Baron" <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Aug 2, 2014 11:01 AM, "LtPowers" <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > And then there could be a little chat window allowing real-time
>> >> >> > communication while the editor walks through her first edit.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> [originally didn't realize who you were replying to… also haven't
>> >> >> read
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> whole thread yet]
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That is technically feasible. Maybe would have new implications for
>> >> >> privacy (including WMF privacy policy). Unless the realtime chats
>> >> >> were
>> >> >> publicly logged. (then same privacy as existing teahouse, etc)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Essentially would be a more interactive version of teahouse? (i.e.
>> >> >> shorter
>> >> >> wait for a reply and you're paired with someone that's known to be
>> >> >> available
>> >> >> at that moment) would be a part of teahouse?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> How would you staff it? Shifts?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyway, that does nothing for the case Kathleen describes. 25 people
>> >> >> (20f:5m) in a class and everyone getting that introduction to all
>> >> >> things
>> >> >> wiki. Then 7 stay active for a year including all the men. (and only
>> >> >> 2
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the 20 women)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm leaning towards thinking we as a community should (for now)
>> >> >> focus
>> >> >> more
>> >> >> on the retention gap than the recruitment gap. Then we're not
>> >> >> recruiting
>> >> >> people just to (mostly) lose them in a month or two. But would be
>> >> >> interested
>> >> >> to hear thoughts on that from someone with a more rigorous analysis.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -Jeremy (jeremyb)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> P.S. http://www.onthemedia.org/story/31-race-swap-experiment/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Gendergap mailing list
>> >> >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Gendergap mailing list
>> >> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
>> >>
>> >> "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
>> >> and clothes."
>> >>      --  Desiderius Erasmus
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Gendergap mailing list
>> >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Gendergap mailing list
>> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
>>
>> "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
>> and clothes."
>>      --  Desiderius Erasmus
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sarah Stierch
>
> -----
>
> Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.
>
> www.sarahstierch.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>



--
Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey

"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
and clothes."
     --  Desiderius Erasmus



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2014 21:50:22 -0500
From: Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID: <53DDA36E.80807@barntowire.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

There are plenty of people using IRC, but many of them don't know it. There are chatroom/IRC hybrids, generally on forum
sites. You embed the chat window in a web page, and anyone can join in. Those who want can use any IRC client to get to the
same channel, but with more features.

http://www.irchighway.net/
http://mibbit.com/

Janine

Sarah Stierch wrote:
> Exactly. IRC is for the old school and ubergeek. And as Sue has said in the past - we're only going to "retain" specific
> types of people to be long term editors (ubergeeks like us) but, if we can figure out a solution to help out the "average
> joe/sphine" editor...




------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 19:57:43 -0700
From: Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CAF=dyJi0Vuw3LiN_DWUMsxhWfn9R5OWb+Lz-iPPBiipT1kELRw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

That sounds workable and hopefully friendly.

Pine
On Aug 2, 2014 7:51 PM, "Janine Starykowicz" <jrstark@barntowire.com> wrote:

> There are plenty of people using IRC, but many of them don't know it.
> There are chatroom/IRC hybrids, generally on forum sites. You embed the
> chat window in a web page, and anyone can join in. Those who want can use
> any IRC client to get to the same channel, but with more features.
>
> http://www.irchighway.net/
> http://mibbit.com/
>
> Janine
>
> Sarah Stierch wrote:
>
>> Exactly. IRC is for the old school and ubergeek. And as Sue has said in
>> the past - we're only going to "retain" specific
>> types of people to be long term editors (ubergeeks like us) but, if we
>> can figure out a solution to help out the "average
>> joe/sphine" editor...
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/54dbfa7b/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2014 22:03:09 -0500
From: Janine Starykowicz <jrstark@barntowire.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID: <53DDA66D.5050400@barntowire.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

One of the sites I've found them on is more technical, but another is definitely not. The embedded version is very newbie
friendly.

Janine

Pine W wrote:
> That sounds workable and hopefully friendly.
>
> Pine
>
> On Aug 2, 2014 7:51 PM, "Janine Starykowicz" <jrstark@barntowire.com <mailto:jrstark@barntowire.com>> wrote:
>
>     There are plenty of people using IRC, but many of them don't know it. There are chatroom/IRC hybrids, generally on forum
>     sites. You embed the chat window in a web page, and anyone can join in. Those who want can use any IRC client to get to
>     the same channel, but with more features.
>
>     http://www.irchighway.net/
>     http://mibbit.com/
>
>     Janine
>
>     Sarah Stierch wrote:
>
>         Exactly. IRC is for the old school and ubergeek. And as Sue has said in the past - we're only going to "retain" specific
>         types of people to be long term editors (ubergeeks like us) but, if we can figure out a solution to help out the "average
>         joe/sphine" editor...
>




------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:27:44 -0700
From: Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CAF=dyJgQRn4sO3YsebuW4Ei_vcQKPSUpPmTtvETb=-yeOGBbkg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Janine, can you share links to the sites? I'm seriously interested in this
idea of a friendlier interface for IRC.

Pine
On Aug 2, 2014 8:03 PM, "Janine Starykowicz" <jrstark@barntowire.com> wrote:

> One of the sites I've found them on is more technical, but another is
> definitely not. The embedded version is very newbie friendly.
>
> Janine
>
> Pine W wrote:
>
>> That sounds workable and hopefully friendly.
>>
>> Pine
>>
>> On Aug 2, 2014 7:51 PM, "Janine Starykowicz" <jrstark@barntowire.com
>> <mailto:jrstark@barntowire.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     There are plenty of people using IRC, but many of them don't know it.
>> There are chatroom/IRC hybrids, generally on forum
>>     sites. You embed the chat window in a web page, and anyone can join
>> in. Those who want can use any IRC client to get to
>>     the same channel, but with more features.
>>
>>     http://www.irchighway.net/
>>     http://mibbit.com/
>>
>>     Janine
>>
>>     Sarah Stierch wrote:
>>
>>         Exactly. IRC is for the old school and ubergeek. And as Sue has
>> said in the past - we're only going to "retain" specific
>>         types of people to be long term editors (ubergeeks like us) but,
>> if we can figure out a solution to help out the "average
>>         joe/sphine" editor...
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140802/e5906f10/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 11:54:26 +0530
From: "A. Mani" <a.mani.cms@gmail.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
Message-ID:
        <CADDQFRuZ5Tambq6qkyBFYtyR20TSECV5L7eyO6E225XFu=Nm0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:34 AM, Sarah Stierch <sarah.stierch@gmail.com> wrote:
> 5. Better cheat sheets are needed. People complain about how cluttered and
> overwhelming they are. Just like our online help pages. They're full of
> Wikipediababblespeak and not "to the point."
>
> 6. More guides on how to do events. I have developed checklists and so forth
> for people. I know how much Wikimedians hate writing documentation, but
> honestly, I know for a fact that Wikipedians in Residency's have started
> because of the case study I wrote, I know for a fact GLAMs have done content
> donations because of the case studies I write, and I know for a fact that
> people have ready the case study I wrote about edit-a-thons and learned from
> it and done it. I make powerpoints and post them and encourage people to
> reuse them, and they do.


It is also important to automate help. I have not seen much progress
along those lines.
'Computing with words' is a mature subject.



Best

A. Mani



A. Mani
[Last_Name. First_Name Format]
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS
HomePage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: http://logicamani.blogspot.in/



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2014 10:44:15 +0100
From: Tom Morris <tom@tommorris.org>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
        participation   of women within Wikimedia projects."
        <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Tweet on Paula England
Message-ID: <53DE046F.3050804@tommorris.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I started a stub, but I don't really know anything about sociology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_England


Interestingly, there are quite a few redlinks on the list of presidents
on the ASA article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sociological_Association#Presidents

We also don't have a category for 'Sociologists of gender' or whatever
the appropriate term is for sociologists who study the role of gender.
Or indeed for sociologists of family or sexuality or race/ethnicity etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sociologists_by_field_of_research

Yours,


--
Tom Morris
<http://tommorris.org/>


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 905 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20140803/278ef8bd/attachment-0001.pgp>

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap


End of Gendergap Digest, Vol 43, Issue 3
****************************************