What about Australian indigenous songs that trace the path of songlines that both document
collective history and folk knowledge and also rhythmically document land contours and
other landmarks as a map/timeline/travel guide and often compile folkloric and secondary
and primary knowledge over generations? I'm curious if you think these function in
some ways as tertiary sources which, at least according to the wiki, include "travel
guides, field guides, and almanacs." I'm out of my depth but enjoying the back
and forth here.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 5:20 PM, Stuart A. Yeates <syeates(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Samuel
>
> Can you provide examples of tertiary sources from pure oral cultures? I've
> never heard of any.
>
> Cheers
> Stuart
>
> On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 1:19 am Samuel Klein <meta.sj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think we have all the mechanics needed for this.
>>
>> - Individual revisions aren't editable, once posted, and stay around
>> forever (unless revdeleted).
>> - Each wiki can have its own guidelines for how accounts can be shared.
>> - Rather than limiting who can edit, you could have a whitelist of
>> contributors considered by the local community to represent their
>> knowledge; and have a lens that only looks at those contributions. (like
>> flagged revs)
>>
>> (@stuart - tertiary sourcing can apply to any source; it does not privilege
>> print culture. only particular standards of notability and verifiability
>> start to limit which sources are preferred.)
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 7:39 PM Kerry Raymond <kerry.raymond(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On en.WP we prohibit shared accounts and accounts that appear to
>> represent
>> > an organisation so that's a barrier. But assuming there was some
special
>> > case to allow a username to represent a community of knowledge, we would
>> > still have a practical problem of whether the individual creating such an
>> > account or doing the edit was authorised to do so by that community,
>> which
>> > would require some kind of real-world validation. But, let's say local
>> > chapters or local users could undertake that process using local
>> knowledge
>> > of how such communities identify and operate.
>> >
>> > The problem it still doesn't solve is that whatever information is
added
>> > by that account could then be changed by anyone. We would have to have a
>> > way to prevent that happening, which would be a technical problem. Also
>> > could that information ever be deleted by anyone (even for purely
>> innocent
>> > purposes, e.g. splitting a large article might delete the content from
>> one
>> > article to re-insert into other article). Or is the positioning of the
>> > content within a particular article a decision only that group might be
>> > allowed to take?
>> >
>> > A possible technical/social solution is to have traditional knowledge of
>> > this nature in a sister project, where rules on user names would be
>> > entirely different and obviously oral sourced material allowed. The
>> group
>> > could then produce named units of information as a single unit (similar
>> to
>> > a File on Commons). These units could then be added to en.WP or others
>> > (obviously the language the units are written would have be identified,
>> as
>> > Commons does with descriptions already) so only English content is added
>> to
>> > en.WP and so on. The content would be presented in en.WP in a way (in a
>> > "traditional language" box with a link to something explaining
that what
>> > means) so the reader understands what this info is and is free to trust
>> it
>> > or not. The information itself cannot be modified on en.WP only on the
>> > sister project (requests on talk pages of the sister project would need
>> to
>> > be allowed for anyone to make requests eg report misspelling). En.WP
>> would
>> > remain in control of whether the content was included but could not
>> change
>> > the content themselves.
>> >
>> > It seems to be a sister project similar to the current Commons would be
>> > what we need to make this work.
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >
>> > On 4 Jul 2019, at 6:03 pm, Jan Dittrich <jan.dittrich(a)wikimedia.de>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > >> Maybe not "signed" in the sense of a signature of a Talk
page, but
>> each
>> > > contribution is attributed automatically to its user as seen in the
>> > > history. As someone who edits under my real name, I absolutely put my
>> > name
>> > > to my contributions.
>> > >
>> > > That is what I assumed, too, since it was coherent with some of the
>> > > problems described in:
>> > >
>> >
>>
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/PG-Slides-Wikimania18.p…
>> > > in this interpretation, Mediawiki (and lots of other software)
code-ify
>> > > knowledge production as done by single people [1]– a person can edit,
>> > but
>> > > not a group (which was one of the challenges in the project described
>> in
>> > > the slides, if I remember correctly)
>> > >
>> > > I would be much interested in more research on what values are
"build
>> in"
>> > > our software (Some Research by Heather Ford and Stuart Geiger goes in
>> > this
>> > > direction).
>> > >
>> > > Best,
>> > > Jan
>> > >
>> > > [1] An interesting read on the concept of "transmitting
knowledge"
>> (e.g.
>> > in
>> > > articles and via the web) and knowledge as inherently social would be
>> > > Ingold’s "From the Transmission of Representation to the Education
of
>> > > Attention" (
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/ingold/ingold1.htm).
>> > >
>> > > Am Do., 4. Juli 2019 um 02:20 Uhr schrieb Kerry Raymond <
>> > > kerry.raymond(a)gmail.com>gt;:
>> > >
>> > >> Maybe not "signed" in the sense of a signature of a Talk
page, but
>> each
>> > >> contribution is attributed automatically to its user as seen in
the
>> > >> history. As someone who edits under my real name, I absolutely put
my
>> > name
>> > >> to my contributions.
>> > >>
>> > >> Or the other possible interpretation of "signed" here may
be referring
>> > to
>> > >> the citations which are usually sources with one or small number
of
>> > >> individual authors, as opposed to a community of shared knowledge
>> > >> custodians which is the case with Aboriginal Australians.
>> > >>
>> > >> Kerry
>> > >>
>> > >> Sent from my iPad
>> > >>
>> > >>> On 4 Jul 2019, at 10:28 am, Todd Allen
<toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I found one error:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> "Even the idea that contributions to the wiki should be
signed by
>> > >>> individuals is at odds with many traditional societies where
>> knowledge
>> > >>> expression is mainly collective, not individualised..."
>> > >>>
>> > >>> That's already how it works. Only discussion posts and the
like are
>> > >> signed.
>> > >>> I don't know of any language Wikipedia in which
contributions to the
>> > >> actual
>> > >>> encyclopedia articles are signed, and I know several of the
largest
>> > >>> (German, Spanish, and English) do not have such a practice. (If
there
>> > is
>> > >> a
>> > >>> project where individual contributions are signed, please let
me
>> know,
>> > >> I'd
>> > >>> be interested to see how they make that work. What if it gets
>> edited?)
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Aside from that, the article seems to state that such a project
is
>> > >>> incompatible with both NPOV and copyleft, so I'm not sure
that
>> > Wikimedia
>> > >>> hosting it would be the best fit as those are fundamental
>> requirements.
>> > >>> (That's not to say it's not worth doing at all, of
course.)
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Todd
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 5:52 PM Nathalie Casemajor <
>> > ncasemajor(a)gmail.com>
>> > >>> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Hello,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> For those of you who are interested in "small"
Wikipedias and
>> > Indigenous
>> > >>>> languages, here's a new academic paper co-signed by
yours truly.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Published in an open access journal :)
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Nathalie Casemajor (Seeris)
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> -
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> *Openness, Inclusion and Self-Affirmation: Indigenous
knowledge in
>> > Open
>> > >>>> Knowledge Projects
>> > >>>> <
>> > >>>>
>> > >>
>> >
>>
http://peerproduction.net/editsuite/issues/issue-13-open/peer-reviewed-pape…
>> > >>>>> *
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> This paper is based on an action research project
(Greenwood and
>> > Levin,
>> > >>>> 1998) conducted in 2016-2017 in partnership with the
Atikamekw
>> > >> Nehirowisiw
>> > >>>> Nation and Wikimedia Canada. Built into the educational
curriculum
>> of
>> > a
>> > >>>> secondary school on the Manawan reserve, the project led to
the
>> launch
>> > >> of a
>> > >>>> Wikipedia encyclopaedia in the Atikamekw Nehirowisiw
language. We
>> > >> discuss
>> > >>>> the results of the project by examining the challenges and
>> > opportunities
>> > >>>> raised in the collaborative process of creating Wikimedia
content in
>> > the
>> > >>>> Atikamekw Nehirowisiw language. What are the conditions of
inclusion
>> > of
>> > >>>> Indigenous and traditional knowledge in open projects? What
are the
>> > >>>> cultural and political dimensions of empowerment in this
>> relationship
>> > >>>> between openness and inclusion? How do the processes of
inclusion
>> and
>> > >>>> negotiation of openness affect Indigenous skills and
worlding
>> > processes?
>> > >>>> Drawing from media studies, indigenous studies and science
and
>> > >> technology
>> > >>>> studies, we adopt an ecological perspective (Star, 2010) to
analyse
>> > the
>> > >>>> complex relationships and interactions between knowledge
practices,
>> > >>>> ecosystems and infrastructures. The material presented in
this paper
>> > is
>> > >> the
>> > >>>> result of the group of participants’ collective reflection
digested
>> by
>> > >> one
>> > >>>> Atikamekw Nehirowisiw and two settlers. Each co-writer then
brings
>> > >> his/her
>> > >>>> own expertise and speaks from what he or she knows and has
been
>> > trained
>> > >>>> for.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Casemajor N., Gentelet K., Coocoo C. (2019), « Openness,
Inclusion
>> and
>> > >>>> Self-Affirmation: Indigenous knowledge in Open Knowledge
Projects »,
>> > >>>> *Journal
>> > >>>> of Peer Production*, no13, pp. 1-20.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> More info about the Atikamekw Wikipetcia project and the
involvement
>> > >>>> of Wikimedia Canada:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
https://ca.wikimedia.org/…/Atikamekw_knowledge,_culture_and…
>> > >>>> <
>> > >>>>
>> > >>
>> >
>>
https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atikamekw_knowledge,_culture_and_language_in_…
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>> Wiki-research-l mailing list
>> > >>>> Wiki-research-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>> > >>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
>> > >>>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> Wiki-research-l mailing list
>> > >>> Wiki-research-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>> > >>>
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>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
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>> > >> Wiki-research-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>> > >>
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>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Jan Dittrich
>> > > UX Design/ Research
>> > >
>> > > Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
>> > > Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
>> > >
https://wikimedia.de
>> > >
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617 529 4266
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