It seems to me you are extrapolating from insufficient data. identity
and presentation are not the same thing, but I guess the question in
this context is "what is presentation in an online setting?" "how is
gender shown in an online setting?"
That's pretty easy in one sense, but then you have "in a wiki like
wikipedia" and it's a ton harder.
I would prefer we not track gender at all.
--Sam
On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 5:16 PM, <koltzenburg(a)w4w.net> wrote:
yes, I agree the point you raise is interesting
in attacks, however, the perceived gender is probably more
important than how the attacked user might identify (or not)
and again, this might be one of the reasons why people
identifying as female* tend to refrain from joining surveys
and simply prefer not to be forced to say "who" they "are" -
just like many others who do not identify as (e.g.,
heterosexual) males feel that online spaces get less safe if
they say anything about their gender/s or sexual
identity/identities... how come?
sometimes I think: if only more contemporaries in hegemonic
positions would be willing to switch perspectives for a
minute or two, nonsensical statements like "less than 20%" -
posited as outcomes of "research" - could be done away with,
I guess
as for another attempt at switching one's perspective, who
are those 80%? trans*, inter*, and male people? or fluid
identities, maybe?
best, Claudia
---------- Original Message -----------
From:Sam Katz <smkatz(a)gmail.com>
To:kerry.raymond@gmail.com, Research into Wikimedia content
and communities <wiki-research-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent:Fri, 6 Mar 2015 16:57:58 -0600
Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender
stats Re: Fwd: [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
To those following:
I think this is a valid question I am raising. The
question of whether written communication has a
different way of relating than oral, in the
context of a wiki, which by definition is
collaborative, tracks users but allows anonymous
editing, is a valid question.
Anonymity and pen names were first used often
times by women.
I will also note that in terms of interface biases,
Facebook and other platforms (Acquia Commons)
that use photos of their users as adornments, to
show what users have posted do worse than
wikipedia in terms of encouraging safety and
courage ("be bold in editing") among their users.
Clarifying what the question is in this thread is
a good first step towards answering it. If I was
confused, I stand corrected, but I believe this is
an important discussion to have.
On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Kerry Raymond
<kerry.raymond(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you say that as a man or as a woman?
>
> As a woman, you are assumed to be male routinely in real
life and online.
> Many people make no effort whatsoever,
letters addressed
to "Dr Sir" etc.
>
> Has it got better over the years? Yes, in my real life,
it has got somewhat
> better over the years. But getting involved
in Wikipedia
and its discussions
> about gender is like being back in 1970s.
"Do we really
have a gender gap?"
> "Does it matter if we have a gender
gap?"
>
> Kerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wiki-research-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wiki-research-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Sam Katz
> Sent: Saturday, 7 March 2015 2:54 AM
> To: Research into Wikimedia content and communities
> Subject: Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender
stats Re: Fwd:
> [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
>
> hey,
>
> I just want to note that I am not convinced that gender
expression
> online or indeed expression in general is
the same as it
is in real
> space. Granted, this may be stylistically
what you are
trying to
> prove. But I just wanted to add my two
cents, that
indeed it may not
> have a gender bias directly if the structure
does not
impose it.
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 9:08 AM, <koltzenburg(a)w4w.net>
wrote:
>> Hi Frances,
>>
>> your assumption (an "unknown" user in a language where
>> personal nouns are gendered will always display the
>> masculine form) is correct for deWP, I just tested it
from a
>> new dummy account.
>>
>> you might call it a truly sytemic bias, and especially so
>> because community majority has not seen to changing that
>> space into gender friendly space for all, it seems.
>>
>> so this adds another item of disharmony to my cautious note
>> on gender stats
>>
>> best,
>> Claudia
>> ---------- Original Message -----------
>> From:Frances Hocutt <fhocutt(a)wikimedia.org>
>> To:Research into Wikimedia content and communities
>> <wiki-research-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Sent:Thu, 5 Mar 2015 16:43:04 -0800
>> Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender
>> stats Re: Fwd: [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Mark J. Nelson
>>> <mjn(a)anadrome.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Frances Hocutt <fhocutt(a)wikimedia.org> writes:
>>> >
>>> > > One change that could address the latter incentive is
>> to change the
>>> > > defaults on MediaWiki so that masculine grammatical
>> gender is not the
>>> > > default for new users. It could be randomly assigned,
>> and then some men
>>> > as
>>> > > well as some women would have the incentive to set
>> their gender
>>> > preferences.
>>> >
>>> > That's how it currently works, according to the manual,
>> with the default
>>> > gender set to 'unknown':
>>> >
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgDefaultUserOptions
>>> >
>>> > I'm not sure if that's a recent change, or what's in
>> effect on
>>> > Wikimedia's own wikis, though.
>>> >
>>>
>>> I'm aware that it defaults to "unknown". My
>>> understanding--and please correct me if I'm wrong--
>>> is that an "unknown" user in a language where
>>> personal nouns are gendered will always display
>>> the masculine form (i.e. Usuario for a user of
>>> unknown gender on es.wp). So, a male user doesn't
>>> need to change his gender in preferences in order
>>> to be described accurately where a female user
>>> would need to set her gender in order to be
>>> described as "Usuaria". Hence, different
>>> incentives, and ones that could be addressed with
>>> different default behavior for an "unknown" user.
>>>
>>> -Frances
>> ------- End of Original Message -------
>>
>>
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