[Wikipedia-l] RE: Plea for help

Thu Feb 21 19:52:25 UTC 2002

I agree it is important to make clear what has changed. But, I must say I'm
not exactly clear about what's _not_ clear.  I take it from your message
that the concept of namespaces is not clear, as is the concept of not using
subpages. 

Basically I'd explain the namespace issue as follows: 

Talk and user articles are now in separate "namespaces" though I'm not at
all certain we should try to explain namespaces.  So, I'd say talk and user
articles are now in separate parts of the wikipedia, in order to make it
less likely to confuse these items with real encyclopedia articles.  On the
link bar, at the bottom is a talk link, this takes you over to the portion
of the wikipedia devoted to the discussion of that particular wikipedia
article.  When you are looking at the talk page, in the same space is a link
back to the article which that talk page discusses.  There's no need to
create /talk pages any more, as this new system allows for a cleaner
separation of wikipedia articles and the other pages which we need to have,
but don't count as encyclopedia articles.

And I'd explain the subpages issue as follows:

The new wikipedia software allows us to use parentheses markers to
distinguish between different kinds of article.  Before we had this for
example, we'd have had an article "Poker/stud," but now the same article is
"Stud (poker)."  This means that we are now expecting "Stud (poker)" to be
an entire article, not just a simple addition to the main poker article.
Right now you can use /'s in article names, but we recommend against it
because it isn't as clear as the (poker) notation (there are a number of
different ways to understand the / in a title).  On the other hand, on pages
like TCP/IP, where the / is part of the name of the article, you can and
should still use the /.  

Another use people had for the "XXX/yyy" style page names was to break up
longer articles into chunks.  This can still be done by creating articles
with titles like "World War II battles," rather than making a page "World
War II" with a subpage "World War II/Battles."

************************

However, the above text simply explains the things I've guessed are not
clear, and it intentionally ignores both the complexities of the argument
against subpages, and the complexities involved in explaining namespaces to
a newbie as well as the particular implementation of namespaces in the
wikipedia software.    

If we need a summary of the argument against subpages, I can try to boil
down some points from the extensive debate on the subject.  If we need a
technical explanation of namespaces and how they work in the wikipedia, I
think we can provide that as well.  But the keys to getting adequate
documentation in the hands of users who need it are 1) to understand where
people need additional help, and 2) to make available clear links to that
documentation at precisely the places where this confusion will be
experienced. 

Yours
Mark Christensen

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julie Hofmann Kemp [mailto:juleskemp at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 12:06 PM
> To: wikipedia-l at nupedia.com
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] RE: Plea for help
> 
> 
> Larry, I have to apologize --
> 
> I've been so wrapped up trying to keep my course on track 
> that I didn't
> respond at all to your letter.  I was frankly just glad you were still
> going to be around!  I'll help any way I can.  
> 
> Also, (since I'm hoping lots of people are still reading 
> this) we still
> have NO ACCEPTABLE INFORMATION  on how some of the programming changes
> affect day to day use.  I've offered to write something up -- given an
> explanation, but have been repeatedly ignored or blown off (partially
> because I seem to have offended some delicate programmer sensibilities
> by saying that they were acting exactly like programmers -- 
> good at what
> they do, but less interested in making it clear to the user through
> documentation).  
> 
> Whether or not people want to hear it, the new site is not all that
> user-friendly as far as explaining subpages and namespaces 
> goes (or how
> to report bugs, for that matter -- why isn't there a bug 
> report link?).
> People are still trying to create /Talk pages and /whatever subpages.
> All we need is a carefully placed announcement or two -- I suggest
> adding a special page (changes to the system) and links on the home
> page, on how to edit a page, and on recent changes.  I know that Lars
> added some stuff on namespaces under the article, but what is 
> needed is
> a primer -- something that says...where one did  x in the old version,
> please do y in the new.    I'd do this myself, but am pretty sure I
> can't create a special page (guessing it's an admin thing) 
> and I'm still
> not clear on it.  It appears that, instead of subpages, we should be
> creating link pages (maybe) and that each page is generated with an
> associated talk page.  
> 
> JHK -- feeling very resentful that no one actually seems to think this
> is worth their time.
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:45:37 -0800 (PST)
> From: Larry Sanger <lsanger at nupedia.com>
> To: <wikipedia-l at nupedia.com>
> cc: <intlwiki-l at nupedia.com>
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Plea for help
> Reply-To: wikipedia-l at nupedia.com
> 
> This is an unusual plea for help.  It's possible I'm going out of my
> mind--I mean, I guess I don't think so, but sometimes it 
> seems like it.
> :-)
> 
> Occasionally in the past, controversy has erupted that has occupied
> unfortunately large amounts of my time.  Sometimes the controversy is
> definitely worth the time, but just as often it seems it isn't, not at
> all.  Most recently, in the wake of my announcement that I am 
> no longer
> a paid employee, that I will still be working though as a 
> volunteer, and
> that we might (if we can) start selling ads and soliciting 
> donations to
> help pay for me once again, apparently some people reacted not by
> saying, very kindly, "Oh, poor Larry, whatever will we do 
> without him?"
> but instead, "Huh?  There was a paid employee?  And they might sell
> ads?! Someone was making money?!  This must be a greedy capitalist
> exploitative project.  This shouldn't be!  We've got to do something
> about it!"
> 
> Well, I and sometimes Jimbo then spend a lot of time putting 
> out fires.
> In the present case, we inform the newcomers that, yes, I did do a few
> useful things for the projects oh maybe occasionally; yes, the idea of
> fees for viewing content is absolutely ludicrous and has never been
> considered; yes, we *really, really are* committed to making 
> and keeping
> the content always completely free forever; and yes, we have been
> considering making a nonprofit foundation for Wikipedia and 
> Nupedia for
> a long time now; it's mainly a matter of getting enough time 
> to actually
> start us formally down the road.  (We can start with a "OK now, we're
> really going to do it, it's official, we're asking for pro bono legal
> help to set it up" kind of announcement, but we don't want to do that
> until we have the time to follow through properly.  "We" in this case
> mainly means
> Jimbo.)
> 
> I think some people just sit back and enjoy the show, and 
> figure that I
> can hold my own well enough.
> 
> Well, er, not exactly.  I can, usually, if I spend the time.  But I
> don't have the time anymore.  I literally *don't have the 
> time* for this
> kind of nonsense.  I've spent, I don't know, three hours so far today
> working on various Wikipedia stuff, and it's not even 1 PM yet.  I
> should instead have been, er, looking for a job, or a lot of other
> things my wife wants me to do.  :-)
> 
> So, please, critics, have mercy--be gentle--and, non-critics, if you
> support my cause and think you can supply the correct response to an
> e-mail that, you can predict, I will want to have answered, please do
> that.  Don't hold back waiting for me to do it.  I'll be very 
> grateful.
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
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