[Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

[Fred Bauder]

You see, that's the difference, when I see NuclearWarfare I think tried
trusted and true; he has a long track record on Wikipedia, whatever his
real name is. By the way, the actual identity of all arbitrators,
oversighters, etc are verified by the Foundation.

Fred

>
>
> The Arbitration Committe is a step in
> the right direction. I was probably never informed about it because
> it is only available for a small number of Wikis, and I speak about
> Wikis in general (including the Swedish Wikipedia).
>
> The Committe is obviously alive and
> kicking in the English Wikipedia. When I look at other Committes they
> seem dormant or "dead". As I said earlier I don't believe
> this problem is as big in the English Wikipedia as it is in some
> smaller Wikis, so it is more important that the others were alive.
>
> There are however some principal
> problems with the Arbitration Committee (and I will now use the
> English one as an example). I think these problems are symptomatic
> for the Wiki-org, and reflects what I meant by that the problem is
> not seriously addressed.
>
> I don't care if there is a committe for
> all Wikis or one for every Wiki, the import thing is that they work
> (or for that matter what this instance is called).
>
> 1. The members are not independent of
> the Wikis. It is obvious that they still work on the Wikipedia. That
> means that they run the risk of still having loyalities to old
> friends. It is like when I asked an Ombudsman why he didn't intervene
> when he saw abuses, and he answered "I don't want to because
> they (the abusers) are my friends".
>
> 2. The members have no responsibility.
> First of all they are volunteers and they are anonymous. This means
> that the arbitration is simply moved from a bigger to a smaller group
> within the same community.
>
> The members have no responsibility,
> i.e. they are not accountable for their decisions. How can you make
> someone called "NuclearWarfare" accountable (no offense
> intended, I don't know this person, it is an example.) Would you
> buy a used car from someone who called himself "NuclearWarfare"?
> Would you put your little daughter in care of someone who just calls
> himself " NuclearWarfare"?
>
> If not, why would you put the question
> whether your daughter has been mobbed and harassed in a Wiki in the
> hands of someone who only identifies himself as "NuclearWarfare"?
>
> No, it needs to be professional people
> (with enough knowledge about the Wikis) who is hired by the
> organisation (local or global) and thereby also represents the
> organisation and answers to the organisation.
>
> Someone pointed at Facebook and other
> social medias earlier and said that the problem with mobbing is much
> bigger there. It might be, but the most of these medias actually take
> active part in stopping mobbing and abuses. You can contact them and
> they will often respond very quickly. Some of us may think that they
> are even to restrictive, but they take anyhow their responsibility.
>
> The Wikis on the other hand take no
> responsibility, not for what is written and not for who people are
> treated in the Wiki communities.
>
> This lack of responsibility is I think
> at the heart of this question, and is the soil in which these abuses
> can grow.
>
> 3. Since the members are not
> independent they can not act on their own initiative which is
> absolutely necessary. Not all users, especially children, have the
> courage to speak up even if they are treated very badly. If the
> members were responsible for the actions in the Wikis they must also
> be able to take action when they see abuses.
>
>
> ________________________________
>  Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Gesendet: 21:21 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
> On the contrary, the Arbitration Committee has the responsibility and the
> power. That they do not discharge the full remit is another matter.
> People have ran for and been elected to the committee on a platform of
> not discharging the responsibility it was given.
>
> Fred
>
>> No, I just responded to a problem that I recognized well.
>>
>> If you call him/her this or that is not important.
>>
>> The important thing is that the person (or group of persons) has the
>> responsibility and the power to fulfil its task, i.e. to protect
>> Wiki-users from abuses and mobbing. Today nobody has neither that
>> responsibility nor that power.
>>
>> regards,
>> Lars Gardenius
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>  Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Gesendet: 18:44 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>> itself
>>
>>
>> And your solution is an ombudsman, or what? I know there is a solution
>> that you have in mind. In fact, it looks very much like a solution in
>> search of a problem. Out with it!
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>> The problem is that "howls of outraged anguish" seems to come from the
>>> admins not from the newbies.
>>>
>>> But that was not the question here. The question was that the Wikis
>>> lack
>>> an instance that people can turn to when they are harassed and mobbed
>>> in
>>> the wikis, be that newbies or admins, children or old folks, women or
>>> men.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>  Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> Gesendet: 18:03 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>> itself
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, that is pretty much the situation. The howls of outraged anguish
>>> from those who were not able to dictate (really bad) content or
>>> practices
>>> form the core of our organized opposition. That does not mean systemic
>>> deficiencies don't exist; just that we must look and think in a noisy
>>> environment.
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>>>> On 09/05/2013 04:18 AM, Lars Gardenius wrote:
>>>>> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in
>>>>> a
>>>>> worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't
>>>>> work
>>>>> now.
>>>>
>>>> Where "doesn't work" is mostly defined as "didn't give the result I
>>>> demanded".
>>>>
>>>> I've been part of that dispute resolution process for many years, and
>>>> came out of it with the (admittedly cynical) lesson that the vast
>>>> majority of vocal critics of it have become so as a result of
>>>> "losing"
>>>> to it for having been in the wrong in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> When someone leaves in a tiff because they have been prevented from
>>>> getting their way against consensus, then the system is arguably
>>>> doing
>>>> exactly what it's been designed for.
>>>>
>>>> Of /course/ nobody ends up in a conflict on the projects without
>>>> being
>>>> convinced that they are in the right; and if they end up on the
>>>> losing
>>>> side, they will clearly feel that they were wronged.  We play up the
>>>> concept of discussion leading to consensus but -- let's not kid
>>>> ourselves -- we are all humans and thus subject to ego, stubbornness,
>>>> and personality conflicts.
>>>>
>>>> There *are* no vast, sweeping injustices.  No system is perfect and,
>>>> occasionally, errors *are* made; but the leap from "the system didn't
>>>> let me get my way" to "the system is broken/dying" is all to easy to
>>>> make, and is an unavoidable result of humans interacting.
>>>>
>>>> This certainly could be improved.  More education of users upfront
>>>> might
>>>> prevent the confrontations in the first place; less reliance on
>>>> established cliques would reduce groupthink and exaggerated
>>>> conservatism.  More robots and fewer humans would reduce the effects
>>>> of
>>>> human nature...
>>>>
>>>> -- Marc
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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