[Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Thu Sep 5 18:48:53 UTC 2013

As said that are easily solved in the society as a whole. So it is probably also possible in Wikis.

Regards,
Lars Gardenius

________________________________
 Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org> 
Gesendet: 20:30 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Who is both "independent", knowledgeable, and not involved in a wiki?

All you have to do is read a newspaper or magazine article about
Wikipedia to realize how hopelessly outsiders get everything wrong.

Fred

> Well, it doesn't matter to me if it is re-invention or not.
> To me the important thing is to put such an instance in action.
> And I know for a fact that it doesn't function today since I discussed
> this question with numerous people in the Wiki-org (like the stewards,
> the ombudsman etc.)
>
> That you are independent doesn't mean that you are not accustomed to how
> the Wikis work, I would guess that it actually is a prerequisite that you
> are. It just means that you take a step aside and are no longer actively
> involved in any Wiki and that you understand your position as an
> independent arbitrator. This process is handled without difficulties by
> other organizations.
>
> I am involved in work to counteract mobbing on the Internet in general
> and there are the Wikis today absolutely a part of the problem.
>
>
> Regards,
> Lars Gardenius
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Gesendet: 19:14 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
> That is just a re-invention of the Arbitration Committee. People from an
> external source nearly always have a fatal flaw; they don't understand
> how Wikipedia works. More informed people could man the arbitration
> committee, but that is a matter of documenting what the existing
> committee does and its effect and educating administrators, potential
> candidates and the existing committee members on the practical effect of
> their decisions.
>
> Fred
>
>> Well that is pretty easy: that Wiki-org will follow the example put up
>> by
>> many countries, companies and schools.
>>
>> Create an independent instance (i.e. in this case independent of the
>> Wikis) that you can turn to when you are offended, insulted, mobbed,
>> harassed or in any way mistreated by people in the Wikis.
>>
>> Since so many seems to misunderstand this question, it is not meant to
>> handle questions about content or policies in the separate Wikis, but
>> only about the normal human behaviour that we have agreed on shall be
>> present in a society (today not including the Wikis).
>>
>> It is also important that this independent instance shall be
>> responsible
>> for that the behaviour in the Wikis are within the boundaries of the
>> outside society, and therefore also has the right to intervene in a
>> Wiki,
>> when members of that Wiki cross that boundary.
>>
>> Today there is an increasing problem with mobbing on the Internet. I
>> don't want the Wikis to be an enclave where this is still allowed.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Lars Gardenius
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>  Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Gesendet: 16:04 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>> itself
>>
>>
>> Lars,
>>
>> Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes?
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>> I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases.
>>> I
>>> think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this
>>> thread.
>>>
>>> To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the
>>> Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users.
>>> I
>>> have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman,
>>> both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they
>>> themselves
>>> object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki.
>>>
>>> That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to
>>> which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an
>>> structural
>>> error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big
>>> organization.
>>>
>>> I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled.
>>> They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same
>>> people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil.
>>>
>>> So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this
>>> type
>>> of problems.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>  Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
>>> An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
>>> CC: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>;
>>> "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
>>> Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>> itself
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia
>>> (I
>>> have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would
>>> welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the
>>> result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more
>>> interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve ZhangSent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't
>>> work.
>>> Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Lars Gardenius
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>> Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
>>>>An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>; Wikimedia Mailing List
>>>> <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>>CC: "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>; Wikimedia
>>>> Mailing
>>>> List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>>Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>>>Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>>> itself
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not
>>>> work
>>>> now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about
>>>> everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things
>>>> harder)
>>>>
>>>>Steve Zhang
>>>>Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>>On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
>>>>>
>>>>> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in
>>>>> a
>>>>> worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't
>>>>> work
>>>>> now.
>>>>>
>>>>> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out
>>>>> persons that they don't like is very naive.
>>>>> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the
>>>  Wikis are no exception.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other
>>>>> Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide
>>>>> behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users
>>>>> from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui
>>>>> Correia's email)
>>>>>
>>>>> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks
>>>>> alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal
>>>>> conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must
>>>>> be
>>>>> put in place.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
>>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>>> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>>>> itself
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process.
>>>>> See
>>>>> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who
>>>>> bump
>>>>> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have
>>>>> learned
>>>>> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fred
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the
>>>>>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading
>>>>>> position.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>   Von: Rui Correia <correia.rui at gmail.com>
>>>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>>>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
>>>>>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greetings to All
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not
>>>>>> compared
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a
>>>>>> long
>>>>>> list
>>>>>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore
>>>>>> having
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>  fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around
>>>>>> topis
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a
>>>>>> higher
>>>>>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
>>>>>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the
>>>>>> 'outsider'
>>>>>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets
>>>>>> 'good
>>>>>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down,
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> temper
>>>>>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is
>>>>>> round
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is
>>>>>> making
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a
>>>  cabal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
>>>>>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and
>>>>>> everbody
>>>>>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear
>>>>>> you!".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more
>>>>>> importantantly
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are
>>>>>> legions
>>>>>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
>>>>>> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
>>>>>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go
>>>>>> back
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> XP.
>>>>>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to
>>>>>> XP
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of
>>>>>> offending
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant -
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was
>>>>>> immediately
>>>>>> closed,
>>>  labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed
>>>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in
>>>>>> eight
>>>>>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a
>>>>>> number
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am
>>>  happy to see
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy
>>>>>> Wales
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rui Correia
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>> Rui Correia
>>>>>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
>>>>>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
>>>>>> NÃºmero de TelemÃ³vel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186
>>>>>> _______________
>>>>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>  Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>