[Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Thu Sep 5 18:36:11 UTC 2013

It seems to me, that Lars in wording
*> **you take a step aside and are no longer actively involved in any Wiki*
means seasoned Wiki veterans, so *former* insiders.

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:30 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net> wrote:

> Who is both "independent", knowledgeable, and not involved in a wiki?
>
> All you have to do is read a newspaper or magazine article about
> Wikipedia to realize how hopelessly outsiders get everything wrong.
>
> Fred
>
> > Well, it doesn't matter to me if it is re-invention or not.
> > To me the important thing is to put such an instance in action.
> > And I know for a fact that it doesn't function today since I discussed
> > this question with numerous people in the Wiki-org (like the stewards,
> > the ombudsman etc.)
> >
> > That you are independent doesn't mean that you are not accustomed to how
> > the Wikis work, I would guess that it actually is a prerequisite that you
> > are. It just means that you take a step aside and are no longer actively
> > involved in any Wiki and that you understand your position as an
> > independent arbitrator. This process is handled without difficulties by
> > other organizations.
> >
> > I am involved in work to counteract mobbing on the Internet in general
> > and there are the Wikis today absolutely a part of the problem.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Lars Gardenius
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> > An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Gesendet: 19:14 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> > Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
> >
> >
> > That is just a re-invention of the Arbitration Committee. People from an
> > external source nearly always have a fatal flaw; they don't understand
> > how Wikipedia works. More informed people could man the arbitration
> > committee, but that is a matter of documenting what the existing
> > committee does and its effect and educating administrators, potential
> > candidates and the existing committee members on the practical effect of
> > their decisions.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> >> Well that is pretty easy: that Wiki-org will follow the example put up
> >> by
> >> many countries, companies and schools.
> >>
> >> Create an independent instance (i.e. in this case independent of the
> >> Wikis) that you can turn to when you are offended, insulted, mobbed,
> >> harassed or in any way mistreated by people in the Wikis.
> >>
> >> Since so many seems to misunderstand this question, it is not meant to
> >> handle questions about content or policies in the separate Wikis, but
> >> only about the normal human behaviour that we have agreed on shall be
> >> present in a society (today not including the Wikis).
> >>
> >> It is also important that this independent instance shall be
> >> responsible
> >> for that the behaviour in the Wikis are within the boundaries of the
> >> outside society, and therefore also has the right to intervene in a
> >> Wiki,
> >> when members of that Wiki cross that boundary.
> >>
> >> Today there is an increasing problem with mobbing on the Internet. I
> >> don't want the Wikis to be an enclave where this is still allowed.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Lars Gardenius
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >>  Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> >> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> >> Gesendet: 16:04 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> >> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
> >> itself
> >>
> >>
> >> Lars,
> >>
> >> Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes?
> >>
> >> Fred
> >>
> >>> I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases.
> >>> I
> >>> think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this
> >>> thread.
> >>>
> >>> To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the
> >>> Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users.
> >>> I
> >>> have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman,
> >>> both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they
> >>> themselves
> >>> object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki.
> >>>
> >>> That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to
> >>> which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an
> >>> structural
> >>> error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big
> >>> organization.
> >>>
> >>> I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled.
> >>> They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same
> >>> people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil.
> >>>
> >>> So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this
> >>> type
> >>> of problems.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Lars Gardenius
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>>  Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
> >>> An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
> >>> CC: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>;
> >>> "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> >>> Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> >>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
> >>> itself
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia
> >>> (I
> >>> have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would
> >>> welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the
> >>> result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more
> >>> interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Steve ZhangSent from my iPad
> >>>
> >>> On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't
> >>> work.
> >>> Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow.
> >>>>
> >>>>Regards,
> >>>>Lars Gardenius
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>________________________________
> >>>> Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
> >>>>An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>; Wikimedia Mailing List
> >>>> <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> >>>>CC: "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>; Wikimedia
> >>>> Mailing
> >>>> List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> >>>>Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> >>>>Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
> >>>> itself
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not
> >>>> work
> >>>> now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about
> >>>> everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things
> >>>> harder)
> >>>>
> >>>>Steve Zhang
> >>>>Sent from my iPad
> >>>>
> >>>>On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't
> >>>>> work
> >>>>> now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out
> >>>>> persons that they don't like is very naive.
> >>>>> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the
> >>>  Wikis are no exception.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other
> >>>>> Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide
> >>>>> behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users
> >>>>> from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui
> >>>>> Correia's email)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks
> >>>>> alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal
> >>>>> conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must
> >>>>> be
> >>>>> put in place.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>> Lars Gardenius
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>> Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> >>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> >>>>> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> >>>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
> >>>>> itself
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process.
> >>>>> See
> >>>>> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who
> >>>>> bump
> >>>>> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have
> >>>>> learned
> >>>>> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fred
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the
> >>>>>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading
> >>>>>> position.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>> Lars Gardenius
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>   Von: Rui Correia <correia.rui at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> >>>>>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
> >>>>>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
> >>>>>> itself
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Greetings to All
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not
> >>>>>> compared
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a
> >>>>>> long
> >>>>>> list
> >>>>>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore
> >>>>>> having
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>
> >>>  fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around
> >>>>>> topis
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a
> >>>>>> higher
> >>>>>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of
> >>>>>> people
> >>>>>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
> >>>>>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the
> >>>>>> 'outsider'
> >>>>>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets
> >>>>>> 'good
> >>>>>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down,
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> temper
> >>>>>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is
> >>>>>> round
> >>>>>> at
> >>>>>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is
> >>>>>> making
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a
> >>>  cabal.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that
> >>>>>> one
> >>>>>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
> >>>>>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and
> >>>>>> everbody
> >>>>>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we
> >>>>>> know
> >>>>>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear
> >>>>>> you!".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more
> >>>>>> importantantly
> >>>>>> -
> >>>>>> was
> >>>>>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are
> >>>>>> legions
> >>>>>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we
> >>>>>> know
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
> >>>>>>
> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
> >>>>>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go
> >>>>>> back
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> XP.
> >>>>>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to
> >>>>>> XP
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> an
> >>>>>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of
> >>>>>> offending
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant -
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR,
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was
> >>>>>> immediately
> >>>>>> closed,
> >>>  labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
> >>>>>>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed
> >>>>>> elsewhere.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top,
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> don't
> >>>>>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in
> >>>>>> eight
> >>>>>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a
> >>>>>> number
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am
> >>>  happy to see
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy
> >>>>>> Wales
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Rui Correia
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> _________________________
> >>>>>> Rui Correia
> >>>>>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
> >>>>>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
> >>>>>> NÃºmero de TelemÃ³vel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186
> >>>>>> _______________
> >>>>>>
> >>>  _______________________________________________
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