[Wikimedia-l] AffComs $40,000 Hong Kong junket

Tue May 14 20:13:18 UTC 2013

Hi all,

Thank you all for your kind suggestions on specific hotels.

I would just like to reiterate what might have been lost under the pile of
talk page messages, is that
1) technically, the WMF still has to approve the overall budget request
that this meeting forms a part of, and while I don't expect that they
wouldn't, we have not yet actually started executing any logistical
arrangements (these would happen in co-ordination with the WMF and probably
the Wikimania organizers for some of the other things we have in mind
)
2) this is a budget based on the hotel the WMF has chosen to our knowledge
for its staff, and the $200 is the planning amount they used, and therefore
we have used the same for the budget. As far as I am aware, actual costs in
the chosen hotel based on a random internet search are lower at this moment
(indeed, in the range some people have suggested), but I cannot predict
whether the prices would go up if one tries to book many rooms or adds the
price of internet and breakfast. These are the details I expect we will be
discussing directly with the WMF's travel organizer who will probably end
up recommending a specific hotel within the maximum price-range - it might
not end up being the same used by WMF staff

3) despite the flexibility provided by the budget, a number of committee
members have expressed the need to examine whether they could stay in
accommodation shared by other attendees (be those hotels, or hostels). We
will continue this discussion with the WMF and the Wikimania organizers,
and more importantly, inside the committee to see what is possible and
desired (we might end up staying at different places to be able to reach
out to the most number of people).

Similarly to the hotel budget having a bit of flexibility, we have added a
buffer to the flight price estimates to make sure we can stay within
budget, the final costs will most probably be well below those budgeted,
but the budget is able to absorb unforeseen expenses. (As the budget is
approved as part of the WMF annual plan, we do not have or do not feel to
have much flexibility in reallocating spending from other lines if the
meeting would turn out to be more expensive.)

Again, I thank you all heartily for your helpful suggestions. I really
appreciate everyone's desire to help and I do hope the WMF travel
organizers are reading this thread, as it will ultimately be the task of
them and AffCom to find a solution that stays within budget, is compatible
with the travel policy and one that committee members are comfortable with
to be effective in the meeting. In the long run, if the WMF doesn't amend
its travel practices one can always join any of the WMF volunteer or staff
communities that result in occasional travel as a perk and more often as a
cost of doing their business effectively.

Best regards,
Bence

On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 9:53 PM, Tonmoy Khan <tonmoy.du at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> I think the question here should be more general, not for the particular
> case of AffCom only. We should really give a serious thought on whether
> such big expenditures are really worth the money or not. And it should
> encompass all the parties to the movement (volunteers, chapter members,
> WMF). Here, the choice of hotel really seems expensive. Though I didn't
> have any prior idea about hotel rent in Hong Kong, I searched on google for
> some good quality hotels in Tsim Sha Tsui area and found that there are
> many 4 star hotels (also highly rated) that have room rent within $110 to
> $150 range. Link:
>
> http://www.agoda.com/pages/agoda/default/DestinationSearchResult.aspx?asq=bs17wTmKLORqTfZUfjFABizf6xim3HxBNSprgOQXrVsxfdzWn0%2f0znqfDl5OpHpJEpI6UxJ3hIJhRGCSVK%2f54u4zfq8pkoaMpcy7sIc2UgCZdKAkRVT5G%2fOzan8m99LRyQrMqUm5cC3FKFKM4Rpinbn%2fmElm0M49SNeQL0KmHao%3d&tick=635041800643
>
> So, if there is option to save some movement money then why not!
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Tonmoy
>
>
>
> Ali Haidar Khan (tOnmOy)
> Treasurer
> Wikimedia Bangladesh
>
> "ভাবুনতো এমন এক পৃথিবীর কথা, যেখানে প্রতিটি মানুষ সমস্ত জ্ঞান বাধাহীন ভাবে
> আদান প্রদান করতে পারবে। এটাই আমাদের অঙ্গীকার।"
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Itzik Edri <itzik at infra.co.il> wrote:
>
> > Bence,
> >
> > I appreciate AffCom work, and everyone of the the committee volunteers
> that
> > doing a great job. But I really don't like the excuse of sticking to
> WMF's
> > policy. Without having to start discussing the WMF's policy, I
> > think AffCom should be mature enough to adopt a similar policy behavior
> as
> > the chapters which they confirms and leading in the start-up steps. Even
> in
> > DC, Berlin and Milan - the WMF's booked expensive hotel, while the
> chapters
> > were mature enough to stay in others good hotels with much more fair
> > prices. Again, this is not the time for criticism of the policy and it's
> > not AffCom fault, but you as volunteers, as part of the community, I
> think
> > should have the maturity to say "Thanks for the option, but we prefer for
> > the visibility and the fairness to book less expensive accommodation".
> >
> > BTW. 40,000$ it's about 25 scholarships we can give. Not saying AffCom
> > don't need to attend Wikimania, but having much less fancy budget is
> always
> > welcome.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 12:01 AM, Bence Damokos <bdamokos at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Tomasz,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:14 PM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski <
> > > tomasz at twkozlowski.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Gregory Varnum wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  I am not sure what you mean by none of the members being willing to
> > > >> comment.
> > > >>
> > > > > Our chair has responded several times on Meta and many others have
> > > > responded
> > > > > to Odder via email about this.
> > > >
> > > > Let me just straighten this, Greg. Nobody has ever contacted me via
> > > e-mail
> > > > about this except for the insults aimed at me after my first blog
> post
> > on
> > > > the matter — and you as an AffCom member should be especially aware
> of
> > > > this, as the whole of AffCom was CC'd to every message that I
> received.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I apologise if the tone of some of the e-mails you have received were
> > > harmful, and I am sorry for my involvement in that.
> > > I think it really came down to the fact that we were quite surprised at
> > the
> > > time that as a committee member or adviser you did not feel able to
> raise
> > > the issue or issues that you were perceiving. This lack of trust or
> > ability
> > > to communicate openly really saddened me.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >  The hotel is in-line with WMF guidelines and as has been noted, we
> > look
> > > >> to
> > > >>
> > > > > the staff to book those reservations and make appropriate
> cost-saving
> > > > decisions.
> > > >
> > > > Which is opposite to what the Committee has been doing so far; for
> > > > instance, during the last Committee meeting, the then-ChapCom members
> > > have
> > > > been using the same accommodation as the rest of the conference
> > > > participants — and that was a true a cost-saving decision.
> > > >
> > > If I remember correctly, at the time the Committee did not have a
> budget
> > > and a number of details around fiscal responsibility ended up very
> > > complicated out of sheer goodwill (with certain chapters paying AffCom
> > > members' travel, Wikimedia Germany kindly offering to pay for those who
> > had
> > > to stay only an extra night, and the WMF paying from the Board's budget
> > for
> > > the rest) and the choice was probably made by me to stay with the
> chapter
> > > delegates as that was the default.
> > >
> > > In any case, with the dedicated budget we have taken steps to greater
> > > clarity and accountability and this involves making sure that the WMF
> > pays
> > > for AffCom travel, and that in turn we follow WMF policy on
> reimbursement
> > > and choice of accommodation and in any other way they may prescribe for
> > > spending our budget.
> > > Technically and individually we could decide on anything that is
> cheaper
> > > than what is allowed by policy (e.g. shared accommodation, or different
> > > level of comfort), but those decisions would be made on the grounds of
> > such
> > > factors as the accommodation choice of others with whom we would want
> to
> > > meet in off hours (including other AffCom or community members),
> medical
> > > reasons, or strong personal aversion to a particular lodging.
> > >
> > > I believe that the details of the travel policy of the WMF are up to
> the
> > > WMF to set and I don't think it is a good use of AffCom time to
> > micromanage
> > > the WMF's travel budget. If the WMF did decide that from now on it
> would
> > > choose five-star hotels or only hostels with communal showers, would
> both
> > > be unfortunate, but AffCom would then follow that policy. This is
> > > regardless of whether personally I believe the WMF is making the best
> > > choices when it comes to choosing accommodation, it is simply not our
> > role
> > > as AffCom to fix the WMF's travel policy, nor do I see much benefit in
> > > "setting an example" when in reality AffCom only makes up a fraction of
> > WMF
> > > travellers (including those going to Wikimania).
> > >
> > > I am quite confident in the level of financial oversight the board and
> > WMF
> > > staff provide in making sure our budget is reasonable in the context of
> > WMF
> > > spending. I personally have spent a lot of time making sure our budget
> > was
> > > not seen as unreasonable or bloated by the WMF.
> > >
> > > We have made the decision to spend on an annual meeting, scholarships
> for
> > > affiliates to be (for Wikimania and other events), start up grants, and
> > > travel in general to be represented at events and to visit affiliates
> – I
> > > think it would be more interesting to have a discussion about these
> > > decisions than the choice of hotels or whether we could save a few
> > dollars
> > > by walking instead of taking the bus from the airport.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Bence
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