[Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor "temporary" opt-out

Wed Aug 7 17:31:16 UTC 2013

Histrionics is generally not a productive policy either.
It gets tedious after a while.
Cheers
Peter

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "The Cunctator" <cunctator at gmail.com>
To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor "temporary" opt-out

> This perspective is not a productive one for building and maintaining a
> community. You need to have a better way of granting legitimacy to 
> people's
> concerns while being able to discern histrionics.
>
> Generally the optimal easy is to have there be a pathway by which the
> complainants have to fix the problem to the satisfaction of their 
> strongest
> opposition.
> On Aug 6, 2013 1:04 PM, "Peter Southwood" <peter.southwood at telkomsa.net>
> wrote:
>
>> To me it looks like a fairly small number of editors are making a fairly
>> large amount of noise, A very small number making a disproportionately
>> large amount, and a much larger number, probably the majority, have not
>> even bothered to comment at all. I also have not analysed the numbers, 
>> but
>> to me it looks like the numbers who have made one liner comments that 
>> they
>> approve is probably the same order of magnitude as the number who protest
>> incessantly. This is Wikipedia, there are always a small number who make 
>> a
>> lot of noise. After a while fewer people take them seriously. I start to
>> get the impression that there are now some people who have invested so 
>> much
>> effort into making a big deal of this that they now feel obliged to make 
>> an
>> even bigger deal so they can feel justified in doing so.  Maybe I'm 
>> wrong,
>> maybe the numbers do indicate a wdespread and deep seated sense of
>> alienation. Maybe not. Time will probably tell, and hey, someone who is
>> prepared to approach the analysis scientifcally may get a dissertation 
>> out
>> of it. Stranger things have happened.. I also think the approach was
>> flawed, but I appreciate the reasons and I am prepared to assume good 
>> faith.
>> Cheers,
>> Peter
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Wayne Williams" <
>> kwwilliams at kwwilliams.com>
>> To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" 
>> <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org<wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>> >
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 9:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor "temporary" opt-out
>>
>>
>>  I've made no claim about "most" long-term editors, but any perusal of 
>> the
>>> two RFCs and the Feedback page would demonstrate that there's a fairly
>>> large group.
>>>
>>> Or are you arguing that deploying bug-ridden software that corrupts
>>> articles, hangs browsers, crashes unexpectedly, and doesn't have 
>>> sufficient
>>> features to edit basic articles is somehow OK as long the site survives 
>>> the
>>> disruption? Even if it can be shown that development knew that was the 
>>> case
>>> prior to deployment, and chose to deploy it anyway?
>>>
>>> KWW
>>>
>>> Op 2013/08/06 10:54, Peter Southwood schreef:
>>>
>>>> Evidence that most long term editors are frothing at the mouth would be
>>>> a good start, evidence that the rollout of VE has had a significant 
>>>> impact
>>>> on long term editor retention, either way, even evidence that WP is in
>>>> rapid decline that is in any way related to VE, positively or 
>>>> negatively,
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Wayne Williams" <
>>>> kwwilliams at kwwilliams.com>
>>>> To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" 
>>>> <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org<wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>> >
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 6:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor "temporary" opt-out
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Op 2013/08/06 9:07, Peter Southwood schreef:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you have data to back up your claims?
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>> What do you need? Evidence that Wikipedia has survived for years?
>>>>> Evidence that its decline is not so rapid as to indicate an emergency
>>>>> situation? Quotes from Erik where he states that he disrupted English
>>>>> Wikipedia in order to create a test bed? The first two are judgement 
>>>>> calls,
>>>>> for the third there's an embarrassment of riches. Let me know what you 
>>>>> need.
>>>>>
>>>>> KWW
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Wayne Williams" <
>>>>>> kwwilliams at kwwilliams.com>
>>>>>> To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" 
>>>>>> <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org<wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 4:51 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor "temporary" opt-out
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Op 2013/08/05 23:44, MZMcBride schreef:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This leaves us to consider the biggest question: opt-in vs. 
>>>>>>>> opt-out.
>>>>>>>> Erik and James are both quite smart, they are true Wikimedians, and 
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> make reasonable points about choosing opt-out over opt-in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is the point on which we fundamentally disagree. Their argument
>>>>>>> for 'opt-out' is based solely upon the quality and quantity of 
>>>>>>> testing that
>>>>>>> it affords to VE. VE is not a mission-critical feature: while we 
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> concerns about Wikipedia's sustainability, there's no question that 
>>>>>>> it has
>>>>>>> survived for years and will survive for years more. The stability of 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> site is much more important than testing this code, and the testing
>>>>>>> strategy of presenting it as if it was functioning software and 
>>>>>>> seeing what
>>>>>>> people did with it wasn't a reasonable decision: it was completely 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> absolutely irresponsible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> KWW
>>>>>>>
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