[Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor "temporary" opt-out

Wed Aug 7 16:54:54 UTC 2013

This perspective is not a productive one for building and maintaining a
community. You need to have a better way of granting legitimacy to people's
concerns while being able to discern histrionics.

Generally the optimal easy is to have there be a pathway by which the
complainants have to fix the problem to the satisfaction of their strongest
opposition.
On Aug 6, 2013 1:04 PM, "Peter Southwood" <peter.southwood at telkomsa.net>
wrote:

> To me it looks like a fairly small number of editors are making a fairly
> large amount of noise, A very small number making a disproportionately
> large amount, and a much larger number, probably the majority, have not
> even bothered to comment at all. I also have not analysed the numbers, but
> to me it looks like the numbers who have made one liner comments that they
> approve is probably the same order of magnitude as the number who protest
> incessantly. This is Wikipedia, there are always a small number who make a
> lot of noise. After a while fewer people take them seriously. I start to
> get the impression that there are now some people who have invested so much
> effort into making a big deal of this that they now feel obliged to make an
> even bigger deal so they can feel justified in doing so.  Maybe I'm wrong,
> maybe the numbers do indicate a wdespread and deep seated sense of
> alienation. Maybe not. Time will probably tell, and hey, someone who is
> prepared to approach the analysis scientifcally may get a dissertation out
> of it. Stranger things have happened.. I also think the approach was
> flawed, but I appreciate the reasons and I am prepared to assume good faith.
> Cheers,
> Peter
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Wayne Williams" <
> kwwilliams at kwwilliams.com>
> To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org<wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> >
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 9:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor "temporary" opt-out
>
>
>  I've made no claim about "most" long-term editors, but any perusal of the
>> two RFCs and the Feedback page would demonstrate that there's a fairly
>> large group.
>>
>> Or are you arguing that deploying bug-ridden software that corrupts
>> articles, hangs browsers, crashes unexpectedly, and doesn't have sufficient
>> features to edit basic articles is somehow OK as long the site survives the
>> disruption? Even if it can be shown that development knew that was the case
>> prior to deployment, and chose to deploy it anyway?
>>
>> KWW
>>
>> Op 2013/08/06 10:54, Peter Southwood schreef:
>>
>>> Evidence that most long term editors are frothing at the mouth would be
>>> a good start, evidence that the rollout of VE has had a significant impact
>>> on long term editor retention, either way, even evidence that WP is in
>>> rapid decline that is in any way related to VE, positively or negatively,
>>> Cheers,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Wayne Williams" <
>>> kwwilliams at kwwilliams.com>
>>> To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org<wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> >
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 6:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor "temporary" opt-out
>>>
>>>
>>>  Op 2013/08/06 9:07, Peter Southwood schreef:
>>>>
>>>>> Do you have data to back up your claims?
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>> What do you need? Evidence that Wikipedia has survived for years?
>>>> Evidence that its decline is not so rapid as to indicate an emergency
>>>> situation? Quotes from Erik where he states that he disrupted English
>>>> Wikipedia in order to create a test bed? The first two are judgement calls,
>>>> for the third there's an embarrassment of riches. Let me know what you need.
>>>>
>>>> KWW
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Wayne Williams" <
>>>>> kwwilliams at kwwilliams.com>
>>>>> To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org<wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>>> >
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 4:51 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor "temporary" opt-out
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Op 2013/08/05 23:44, MZMcBride schreef:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This leaves us to consider the biggest question: opt-in vs. opt-out.
>>>>>>> Erik and James are both quite smart, they are true Wikimedians, and they
>>>>>>> make reasonable points about choosing opt-out over opt-in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is the point on which we fundamentally disagree. Their argument
>>>>>> for 'opt-out' is based solely upon the quality and quantity of testing that
>>>>>> it affords to VE. VE is not a mission-critical feature: while we have
>>>>>> concerns about Wikipedia's sustainability, there's no question that it has
>>>>>> survived for years and will survive for years more. The stability of the
>>>>>> site is much more important than testing this code, and the testing
>>>>>> strategy of presenting it as if it was functioning software and seeing what
>>>>>> people did with it wasn't a reasonable decision: it was completely and
>>>>>> absolutely irresponsible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> KWW
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org <Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**
>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>,
>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@**lists.wikimedia.org<wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>>>> ?subject=**unsubscribe>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org <Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**
>>>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>,
>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@**lists.wikimedia.org<wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>>> ?subject=**unsubscribe>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org <Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>,
>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@**lists.wikimedia.org<wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>> ?subject=**unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org <Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>,
>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@**lists.wikimedia.org<wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> ?subject=**unsubscribe>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org <Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@**lists.wikimedia.org<wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org>
>> ?subject=**unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org <Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@**lists.wikimedia.org<wikimedia-l-request at lists.wikimedia.org>
> ?subject=**unsubscribe>