[Wikimedia-l] Why the WP will never be a real encyclopaedia

Fri Aug 2 06:09:17 UTC 2013

Journalist = professional troll
Explains but does not justify.
Peter
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rui Correia" <correia.rui at gmail.com>
To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why the WP will never be a real encyclopaedia


> Denny
>
> If you going to shoot me down as a troll, then I can say only that you are
> one of those that refuse to see the elephant in the room. I am a 
> journalist
> (and a journalism trainer), I know that if I want others to read what I
> have to say I need to come up a headline that will attract attention, 
> while
> at the same time abiding by age-old ethic standards - and I have done so.
>
> Who controls what is said has become a big problem on the English and to a
> degree the Portuguese WPs. Be fair to yourself, step back and just look at
> some articles to see how many times a day they get reverted. The rot has
> become endemic - there are so many people who do nothing but revert the
> whole day without EVER contributing anything. Yes, I know that a lot of 
> the
> reverting is to undo the work of vandals with nothing better to do, but
> most of it is done to preserve the view thae a specific article has
> 'acquired' through time.
>
> Can you honesty tell me that you have not come across articles that are
> 'untouchable'? That you know they convey a view that is not entirely 
> right,
> but YOU and I cannot change it? Can you tell me that you have not come
> across editors who are hell-bent on preserving this or that article just 
> as
> it is?
>
> Rui
>
> On 1 August 2013 22:40, Denny Vrandečić 
> <denny.vrandecic at wikimedia.de>wrote:
>
>> Rui,
>>
>> if your basic assumption is that Wikipedia will never be a real
>> encyclopedia because of the lack of diversity among its contributors, I
>> would like to know of any other encyclopedia that is anywhere close to 
>> the
>> diversity among its contributors that Wikipedia has (just a side-note, 
>> the
>> original Encyclopédie had an even worse bias towards aristocratic, male
>> French than Wikipedias does, as surprising as it sounds). So, which
>> Encyclopedia do you consider a real encyclopedia at all?
>>
>> Also, never mind the fact that we already sport such a diversity -- we 
>> are
>> actively aiming and striving for even more diversity, and we are not
>> comparing us to the usually abysmal record of other encyclopedias, but
>> merely to our own high, maybe even unreachable ideals.
>>
>> So, whereas I fully agree that there is a lot about Wikipedia that can be
>> improved, I am not sure that a mail that starts with the statement "Why 
>> the
>> Wikipedia will never be a real encyclopedia" deserves even the
>> consideration that I offered you here, and is to be considered anything
>> beyond trolling.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Denny
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/8/1 Rui Correia <correia.rui at gmail.com>
>>
>> > Dear Colleagues at the Foundation
>> >
>> > I just came across an artecle called "White Africans of European
>> ancestry".
>> > What is that even supposed to mean?  Who would be any other "white
>> people"
>> > if not of Europen ancestry? What other white people (yes, WP has a
>> > definition of "white people" could these be? Especially as it already
>> says
>> > on the talk page that Arabs don't count.
>> >
>> >
>> > When we have 'white people' creating every conceivable article about
>> 'white
>> > people', but we have no 'Khoi' people writing about 'Khoi people, then 
>> > we
>> > can't call the WP an encyclopaedia. But them the rules do say -
>> somewhere -
>> > that "just because ...". And those "just because" rules are all over 
>> > the
>> > place - you can't use what was done in one case to justify another
>> similar
>> > case because someone is bound to throw a "just because" rule at you. 
>> > But
>> > the "just because ..." rule applies only when it is convenient - the
>> > corollary of the "just because .." is "I know more rules and tricks 
>> > than
>> > you and I will win this/ I will not allow you to have your way even if 
>> > I
>> > have to break all the rules and make new ones as I go along".
>> >
>> > So, "just because" there isn't an artice about "Khoi people living in
>> > Denmark" is no reason to not have an article about "White Europens of
>> > Europen descent livng in Patagonia" or "White Europens of Europen 
>> > descent
>> > livng in Timbaktu". We have allowed ourselves to fall victim of the
>> digital
>> > divide - the Khoi don't have computers and internet, white Europeans 
>> > do.
>> > That is not an encyclopaedia.
>> >
>> > Why don't we have a page on "Black Americans of African ancestry"?
>> > Or "Black Europeans of African ancestry"? Strangely enough, type "Black
>> > African" and you get redirected to Black people, BUT the redirect
>> actually
>> > takes you all the way down to Africa - yes, the article on Black people
>> > does not start with Africa, but with the United States, then Brazil 
>> > ....
>> >
>> > Like I said, When we have 'white people' creating every conceivable
>> article
>> > about 'white people', but we have no 'Khoi' people writing about 'Khoi
>> > people, ...
>> >
>> > The same goes for the so-called "Biographies of Living People". I had 
>> > my
>> > first clash on WP on the issue of the "dual nationality" of Nelly
>> Furtado.
>> > Two hundred million people see her as Portuguese, three - yes, 3 -
>> editors
>> > disagree and BRAG they will NEVER ALLOW it. The rationale changes, as 
>> > can
>> > be seen from the talk pages and archives. They go as far as 
>> > 'challenging'
>> > editors that NF sees herself as Portuguese, to then dismiss all the
>> > evidence as not good enough - even Nelly HERSELF saying she is 
>> > PORTUGESE
>> > was thrown out! Why? Obvious! She doesn't count, she is not a NEUTRAL
>> > source!!!!!!!!!!! We have become a joke!
>> >
>> > How about being constructive?
>> >
>> > If we can come up with every conceivable script in the world, why has
>> > nobody come up with a script for controversial articles that would 
>> > appear
>> > on the the edit page - like the script that says the article is
>> protected -
>> > ALERTING unsuspecting editors to the fact that said article is
>> cotroversial
>> > for xand y reason, and that if the edit the editor is about to do falls
>> > under that theme, to please first read the talk page, with a direct 
>> > link
>> > ALSO to an explanation on BLP and the issue of ethnic background/ 
>> > present
>> > nationality. It would save lots of wasted time and effort and the three
>> > editors who spend sleepless nights reverting the artcile might actually
>> do
>> > something constructive for a change.
>> >
>> > In closing, of the nine people featured in photos on that page, I know
>> > (have met 5) and correspond with 2 - I can guarantee that all five of
>> them
>> > (and most likley all 9 [or the descendents of those no longer with us])
>> > would object to being featured in such a racist article.
>> >
>> > I will write to them about this. I know that each one is not a valid
>> source
>> > about him/ herself and therefore them objecting will probably not 
>> > count.
>> > Just as an side, in case you didn't know, the census in Brazil is done 
>> > on
>> > the basis of how people see themselves - white, back, green, pink - and
>> > then we carry those figures here in the WP. Ah, sorry, those figures 
>> > are
>> > credible, because they come from the CIA fact book, people speaking for
>> > themselves are not.
>> >
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Rui
>> > --
>> > Rui Correia
>> > Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Consultant
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > _________________________
>> > Rui Correia
>> > Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
>> > Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>> >
>> > Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
>> > Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
>> > _______________
>> > _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Project director Wikidata
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>> Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de
>>
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>
>
>
> -- 
> _________________________
> Rui Correia
> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>
> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
> Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
> _______________
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
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